Should Magic have gold cost associated?

[Hoihe]

Playing a wizard is already the most expensive class. If you disagree, try RCRing one. My last RCR cost me roughly 150k to replace my spells. That alone would buy me enough reagents to last for years, if not a lifetime.

This should not be considered for anything as no one is required to RCR and technically "Retiring" a character in favor of a new one should not relate to that character necessarily having the same reserves/resources. While I agree it is painful to do, it is not required and thus isn't really a cost associated to the class itself. One could say that a Wizard does not have to purchase +4 Natural Armor Amulet, +4 Armor, +4 shield, +4 Weapon(s) and really doens't even need +4 dodge boots or deflection item. Their spells protect them, so that is over a million gold right there at level 30.

I do not say this to argue 'for' magic having a gold cost, as I said earlier in the thread, I am against it. However, saying Wizards have it so much rougher than anyone else is not entirely accurate. They have the MOST difficult time with RCR'ing, but otherwise they are quite adept at being very profitable, since they are not reliant on any expensive equipment. Scrolls are cheaper than epic equipment, after all.


In the end, nothing stops one from RP'ing maintaining weapons and armor (or other equipment) just as no one stops RP with regard to spell components. In fact, it would be REALLY cool if, instead of just firing off a spell every 6 seconds a Wizard were to throw a few lines in about lore appropriate components they use when casting some of their spells. The key here is the RP of these items, not associating cost to every single spell component, whetstone, leather oil, etc...

Re last paragraph: Yeah, it'd be cool if people didn't just instakill whatever the party is fighting while the wizard is typing and run 50 metres in a random direction before the wizard even hits enter.

[samb123]

How many melee classes sit down and RP repairing their gear (with the associated gold cost)? If we can overlook this, then I think we can assume that reagent gathering is done offscreen.

Really, this is probably the most sane thing I've heard in this whole topic. (I'm only half-serious, because the whole premise is somewhat ridiculous to me and quite ill-suited to a game like NWN2.) If folks MUST assume that reagant gathering is something that happens "onscreen", then nothing about the current system prevents you from doing so. I said the following in another thread, and I think it bears repeating here:

Players who like to roleplay using spell components and such should do so. And they can even become "teachers", ICly. For example, a senior wizard telling everyone who asks about getting items identified (via the Identify spell) responds with, "Oh, I think I can. I have a pearl here. I need to go hunting for more soon. Maybe you could help me find some more pearls later?"

RP only works well if it's a cooperative effort. If you want to see a certain type of RP more often, then the onus is on you to do it, frankly. That will encourage others to also do so, if you roleplay it well.

But don't advocate forcing everyone else to pay gold for spells, just because you want to do so. (Which is exactly what this thread is doing.) If others want their reagent gathering to happen off-screen, who are YOU to tell them they're wrong? Why can't you do your reagent gathering on-screen and let everyone else do their own thing?

THAT is all I'm going to say on this topic, because I already beat the dead horse in the thread from which this idea originated...

[Reckeo]

No.

Go play Ultima Online. It's an MMORPG. You have to have loads of regs to cast spells, when you run out, no magic. It takes days and days and grinding to gain skill. When you die you leave a corpse with everything on it. You have to, as a spirit, travel to a healer to be resurrected. Weapons need to be repaired. You need to eat/drink otherwise you never regain spell points. There is no rest mechanic. You can own a house and stash all your loot there. You can sneak into other peoples houses. You can loot fallen houses.

This is not Ultima Online:Tales of Brittania.

I don't see why everyone is constantly trying to impose things that are already implemented in other, free to play, available games. Go play those if that's the experience that you want.

When you get PK'd for the 15th time by a naked mage riding on a horse that one-shots you to loot your corpse, I'll see you server side when you come back here.

I've been throwing around some mixed responses. I'm all about promoting better RP, the only thing that changed my mind about 'spell cost', was really to enhance RP to make it be more lore wise to address some of the other issues that are on server.

I'm definitely not a fan of gold cost, regeant's are an alternative mechanic that cost gold sure, but are not simply 'hit the players gold pile'. It's been an on going discussion in another thread, but until a better alternative is suggested, for a straight 'gold cost for spells' I still stand by no.

Definitely open for discussion of other alternatives, provided they are true to lore and enhance RP without compromising fun factor for too many peeps.

Don't wanna say much more other than just to clarify, lest we merge the threads.

https://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... &start=120

[metaquad4]

What about reagents that add in minor benefits, like +1 or +2 CL, +2 Spell Penetration (for cheap ones), +1 DCs (for expensive ones). That'd encourage people to get them. That wouldn't be a terrible system, instead of punishing players it would reward them. Rewards>Punishments.

Heck, we could do a similar thing for martial characters, introducing oil, grindstone, and other like items that could give small (+1 or +2) bonuses to AB, damage, AC, the like.

Ultimately, it's not really necessary though. You RP having a pouch of reagents and its assumed that you are filling it up. Just as its assumed you are repairing your armor and weapons, its assumed you are eating/drinking, and its assumed you are sleeping/pissing/crapping.

For more profound rituals, like RPing a true resurrection, DMs will usually demand you give the appropriate amount of diamonds. Those powerful magical rituals that require DM oversight and have dramatic effects aren't all that carefree.

Also, another point of interest. Magic in PnP tended to have far more powerful effects than it does in nwn2. Landscape changing effects, personality-changing effects, things of that nature. NWN2's magic is fairly tame.

Honestly, there are a ton of arguments for this, but it all boils down to it just not being fun. More grind is not a fun thing. And this will only encourage more grind. Of course, those of us who already are sitting on mountains of gold won't be affected. Reagents wouldn't be fun in nwn2, just as rust monsters or having to repair your armor wouldn't be fun. We don't need more reasons to do that 1-3 hour loot run every day. Not to mention the fact that some people don't even have enough time to play after doing that loot run. Not everyone has hours and hours on their hands to play this game.

[chad878262]

We have already improved Conjuration (summons), Transmutation (Polymorph/Shapechange) and Necromancy (undead summons). I don't think we need to give DC Casters more power by adding to their already strong DCs.

Linking this to the recent thread about getting gold when not in game... Off screen is the right way to handle weapon/armor maintenance, reagant gathering and other mundane tasks. Otherwise why not require us to use multiple inventory slots for iron rations and require eating every couple hours? This isn't the Sims and much of this stuff is just not fun, as Metaquad said. For some it may be enjoyable, but their are other games for that. I can't imagine spending time in game just making my little sprite polish his boots, wash his tunic or apply sun block.

[Reckeo]

and its assumed you are sleeping/pissing/crapping.

And wiping/bathing and washing with soap, I hope.

A clean BG is a healthy BG!

This made me lol.

[Valefort]

There's actually a way to bath, you can even gain a few bonuses on appraise and diplo iirc.

[Incarnate]

I'm not saying it has to be a specific gold cost, but something that put magic and its use, in the more lore-appropriate perspective. Reckeo and I discussed alternatives in this thread - Magic in the Realms to Enrich RP Culture of Casters to so it would be more lore appropriate and immersive - we're basically seeking possible alternative avenues to a simple GP cost function - in other words we're seeking a solution, rather than leaving as is.

As Reckeo pointed out earlier in the linked thread, the reason why a mechanical enforcement is necessary, simply due to the fact that the problem comes from the people who are less interested in RP, and more interested in just 'playing a game'. They enjoy it for what it is, and might 'RP-lite', without fully embracing, having the time investment, or interest, in learning or engaging in 'RP-medium', or 'RP-lore' play style. The solution you're offering most like will not appeal to RP-lite who wouldn't enjoy that RP, and it won't solve the issue of characters that litterally glitters with magic running around with full buffs nuking everything they can and throwing buffs on strangers as they move around around. Raising cultural expressions of lore-wise RP regarding magic casters simply WILL NOT CIRCUMVENT or PREVENT this.

Also, it requires integrity and a desire to actually rp this, and if one has neither and/or is only really interested in "playing a videogame", that no amount teaching will fix that, and it won't fix the issue.

So what Reckeo and I have got so far, which is certainly worth considering or at least explore and expand upon:
Is basically that a spellcaster need the spell component pouch (as per lore and mechanical rule), such a pouch contains everything needed for the spellcaster to cast spells, including components with a negligible cost, focus and other tools necessary for casting. There would be one type for every school of magic, this pouch would have an amount of "charges" based on its size and capacity, where each spell would use an amount of charges based on its level. This pouch could be resupplied in at least these ways:

• One being gathering which would increase its charges based on appropriate skills and general availability in the area where the caster was gathering.
• Second way would be to salvage from other spell component pouches, for instance found on other dead casters.
• Third way would be the easy route, to go to a vendor and have it resupplied.

1st note: As per rules, a spellcaster that doesn't have such a pouch cannot cast spells unless the caster has what the spell specifically requires.
2nd note: This wouldn't remove the specific material components that have a gold value reflected for the material component, which is also stated in the rules.

I found this to be an excellent, and superior suggestion as opposed to simply imposing a GP cost.

I think I need to remind you that quite a lot of spells require material components where a spell component pouch or focus just simply isn't enough. As I wrote above, the spell component pouch and focus is basically the tools needed to cast spells, without them a spellcaster can cast spells, unless the caster has the spefic components needed at hand. Furthermore, its simply not correct that its only ultra high level powerful spells that has a non-negligible material component.

A couple of examples:
1st:
Identify - Material component: A pearl of at least 100 gp value.
Bless Water - Material component: 5 pounds of powdered silver (worth 25 gp).
Curse Water - Material component: 5 pounds of powdered silver (worth 25 gp).
2nd:
Continual Flame - Material component: Ruby dust with a worth of at least 50 gp.
Magic Mouth - Material component: Jade dust with a worth of at least 10 gp.
Phantom Trap - Material component: A special dust requiring 50 gp to prepare.
Consecrate - Material component: A vial of holy water and 25 gp worth (5 pounds).
Desecrate - Material component: A vial of unholy water and 25 gp worth (5 pounds).
Shield Other - Material component: A pair of platinum rings (worth at least 50 gp each).
3rd:
Nondetection - Material component: Diamond dust with a worth of at least 50 gp.
Sepia Snake Sigil - Material component: 500 gp worth of powdered amber.
Illusory Script - Material component: A lead-based ink (cost of no less than 50 gp).
Fire Trap - Material component: A half-pound of gold dust (cost 25 gp).
Glyph of Warding - Material component: Powdered diamond worth at least 200 gp.
4th:
Stoneskin - Material component: 250 gp worth of diamond dust.
Scrying - Material component: Arcane Caster: Cighly polished silver costing not less than 1,000 gp. Cleric: A holy water font costing not less than 100 gp.
Animate Dead - Material component: A black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead being animated.
Mnemonic Enhancer - Material component: An ivory plaque of at least 50 gp value.
Restoration - Material component: Diamond dust worth 100 gp
5th:
False Vision - Material component: A piece of jade worth at least 250 gp.
Magic Jar - Material component: A gem or crystal worth at least 100 gp.
Symbol of Pain - Material component: Powdered diamond and opal with a total value of at least 1,000 gp
Raise Dead - Material component: Diamonds worth a total of least 5,000 gp.
Hallow - Material component: Herbs, oils, and incense worth at least 1,000 gp, plus 1,000 gp per level of the spell.
Unhallow - Material component: Herbs, oils, and incense worth at least 1,000 gp, plus 1,000 gp per level of the spell.

Granted, some of these spells aren't on the server, but these examples are just to point out that the material component cost aren't just at the very high levels, they begin already at level 1, also many of the spells really should have a cost associated if the material spell components are not that easily accessible or are difficult to obtain - some are really specific and wouldn't be something that would be considered a typical material component. Like for instance, a piece from a ghoul or a ghast. Some of the spells on the server already has a gold cost associated, but still would be nice if the spell component pouch, focus and material components was a lot more integral.

So back to the suggestion that Reckeo and I have gotten so far, please consider it from a respectful and thoughtful approach on how to improve the RP community of the server as a whole, only add constructive criticism, constructive ideas and proposals that will further the process productively.

CONTRIBUTE TO THE SOLUTION PROCESS; I challenge you.

[aaron22]

reason #18 to have gathering regents in game:

-seeing the cloudpeaks lich out in thundar's ride gathering regents.

[Reckeo]

These reasons are awesome and I approve. *sees a Lich pluck a dandelion and place it into it's belt pouch*

I also see no reason why a wizard for example wouldn't be able to employ their familiar to gather regeants for them. Or animal companions. Seems cool RP to me.

And I don't think these component bags would really be (or should be) as expensive as PnP. Just rechargeable items.

Still very much in brainstorming/ground zero stage at this point.

[chad878262]

Reason #25...Since Arcane Casters are now even more difficult all those silly players that dare play an Arcane Gish will just switch to a Favored Soul....We certainly don't have enough of those running around!

[metaquad4]

[Censored by the anti-fun police]

[aaron22]

#13 Calodan opens the crate of the FGK.... finds a ball of guano and a copper piece.

#12 Calodan sells them at auction for 150 bags.... a piece.

[Reckeo]

So uhhh, where was I?

Oh yeah....ideas that are constructive.

[Incarnate]

So people, you were asked to consider it from a respectful and thoughtful approach on how to improve the RP community of the server as a whole, only add constructive criticism, constructive ideas and proposals that will further the process productively.

This isn't constructive, its just sarcasm and flat out opposition, and really just sad that you people handle it the way you do.

So let me re-itterate:

So what Reckeo and I have got so far, which is certainly worth considering or at least explore and expand upon:
Is basically that a spellcaster need the spell component pouch (as per lore and mechanical rule), such a pouch contains everything needed for the spellcaster to cast spells, including components with a negligible cost, focus and other tools necessary for casting. There would be one type for every school of magic, this pouch would have an amount of "charges" based on its size and capacity, where each spell would use an amount of charges based on its level. This pouch could be resupplied in at least these ways:

• One being gathering which would increase its charges based on appropriate skills and general availability in the area where the caster was gathering.
• Second way would be to salvage from other spell component pouches, for instance found on other dead casters.
• Third way would be the easy route, to go to a vendor and have it resupplied.

1st note: As per rules, a spellcaster that doesn't have such a pouch cannot cast spells unless the caster has what the spell specifically requires.
2nd note: This wouldn't remove the specific material components that have a gold value reflected

So let me clarify:
Basically, the pouch spell components is a simplified solution, its not dealing with specific components, but rather with simple numbers.

The gathering part would be a simplified mechanic, so basically whenever this action was performed it would replenish the pouch with a certain amount, which should be based on appropriate skills.

The salvaging part again would be a simplified mechanic, whenever the action was performed as certain amount would be salvaged from the other pouch based on appropriate skills and the type of the pouch.

Resupplying the pouch through a vendor, would be based on its capacity, and would have a gold coin based around how many charges/points is needed until full.

When doing any of these actions roleplaying can also be done.

Furthermore, this also means these pouches could be quite valuable for spellcasters and even non spellcasters. This there is now activities around this, it will encourage people selling their magical services.

Obviously this won't affect those players with mountains of golds, though it will to some degree. It will the very least for their new characters the create.