Warlock - word of changing

[Ahku]

Hello All,

I was wonder if word of changing can alter the warlocks form into something other than just a devil/demon, etc...

I was thinking how awesome it would be if we could use it to change into any elemental.

It would make for good RP play.

~curious

[Hawke]

Moved to appropriate location.

[Sun Wukong]

Just give warlocks the Shapechange form list. Balance wise it should be fine, since warlocks do not exactly have that many self buffs.

[The_Nightingale]

I Fully support this, though if we're giving them polymorph, I suggest moving it to at least lesser invocations, or greater maybe, because honestly... Warlocks got Use Magic Devices. Any warlock can get a wand of polymorph that lasts a whole day. Noone would waste one of the precious invocation slots for something a cheap wand does in equal measure.

Either make their polymorph more meningful, more powerful (which would require balancing so it's not exploited by a warlock dip), or an outright shapechange and keep it under top level invocations. In that case it might actually be worth the effort to transform into something that at least looks powerful.

I'd never grab any of those on any of my warlocks still though. Invocation slots are precious. And sadly, you don't see much variation in invocations picked from warlock to warlock.

[Nemni]

During the shapechange overhaul I suggested that warlocks with word of changing should get access to all the forms that are relevant for various warlock pacts. But nothing has come of that as of yet.

[samb123]

I would advocate for actual shapechange forms to be available to Warlocks. https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Shapechange

It would be in theme and roughly the same power level. Currently, the Shapechange spell includes the Horned Devil shape, for instance. Word of Changing originally used this shape, therefore it makes sense to give warlocks access, imho, to Frost giant, Fire giant, Nightwalker, & Iron golem as well.

[tankteddy]

Or another option If they would like to do so, Simply add a few RP fitting Changes and grant it close to the same bonus that Solar channelers get ((for every level past 20 the Shape change gains +1 in STR DEX and CON)) I would maybe make it half progression or such but would make the change more useful in Epic levels this it is now. Or just give it an AC and change to hit buff as you progress Epics.

((My issue with word of changing is after about level 20-22 it falls short VERY quickly.))

IMHO

[Slunko]

I'll say this much; I've played about 3 warlocks now, all of them to level 30, and a daggercaster warlock to 25ish, and shapechange at the price of a Dark invocation is stupid. Noone will take it. You can grab a polymorph wand for RP/fluff forms, and shapechange only gets good if you have buffs to back it up, otherwise, pretty much any warlock form will be better of blasting, outside of a few cheese exploity builds most likely.

Now, if we finally allowed Gutteral invocations that would open some very flavorful options to warlocks. If you fear the dreaded Monk/shapeshifting class combo, just disable monk dip if you pick up gutteral and remove it's wisdom requirement. Done deal. Now we can all be edgelord horned demons that can cast warlock blasts.

[metaquad4]

I'll say this much; I've played about 3 warlocks now, all of them to level 30, and a daggercaster warlock to 25ish, and shapechange at the price of a Dark invocation is stupid. Noone will take it. You can grab a polymorph wand for RP/fluff forms, and shapechange only gets good if you have buffs to back it up, otherwise, pretty much any warlock form will be better of blasting, outside of a few cheese exploity builds most likely.

Now, if we finally allowed Gutteral invocations that would open some very flavorful options to warlocks. If you fear the dreaded Monk/shapeshifting class combo, just disable monk dip if you pick up gutteral and remove it's wisdom requirement. Done deal. Now we can all be edgelord horned demons that can cast warlock blasts.

Pretty sure monk AC was disabled while polymorphed as part of the new polymorph fixes/changes.

[Slunko]

So... yaai for guttural invocation?

[Invoker]

Now, if we finally allowed Gutteral invocations that would open some very flavorful options to warlocks. If you fear the dreaded Monk/shapeshifting class combo, just disable monk dip if you pick up gutteral and remove it's wisdom requirement. Done deal. Now we can all be edgelord horned demons that can cast warlock blasts.

Guttural Invocations will most likely never make it on the server, because of balance issues.

Staff removed regeneration properties from every item except cloaks (notable example are rings), for similar reasons.

Perma 50% concealed, 5 HP/sec regenerating Horned Devil endlessly noxious chain-blasting isn't deemed balanced. There have been complaints about Druids doing similar things, except they kill slower and have to rest once in a while.

Warlock is already Tier 1, even if you waste a Dark Invocation to take shapechange (and I also believe it isn't the best option). I doubt they'll get this sort of "help" (or Eldritch Glaive, for instance).

[Slunko]

Warlocks... aren't tier 1.

There are a few very specific builds that get decent AC, which along endless decent blasts allows them to solo. A LOT of other classes do the same a lot better.

And pvp-wise, warlock is a free kill unless you're willing to pvp with exclusively scrolls, but anyone with UMD can do that.

Now, demon form;
You will LOSE out on AC if you go from normal form to demon form on those builds. You won't get armor AC anymore, nor a lot of your items.
You will LOSE your access to UMD which is pretty much your only way to pvp most tier 1 classes/builds.
You will also LOSE a whole lote of hide/ms if you're a hips lock.

The only thing good about the demon form is self-regen and triggering traps, and you can already do both of those fine without guttural invocations. You are less effective as a demon in pretty much every other regard.

What it would do though, is allow a wider array of RP options (let's say someone wants to RP being a demon for a while, while not being totally gimped.)
And it would more importantly allow less optimal warlock builds to get closer in power level to the optimal three.

[Invoker]

Warlocks... aren't tier 1.

I disagree. Strongly. QC disagreed as well, back when I was part of it.

There are a few very specific builds that get decent AC, which along endless decent blasts allows them to solo. A LOT of other classes do the same a lot better.

You can't do the same a lot better. Warlocks can solo all bosses aside from the one nobody can solo, and all areas. They are also very powerful in events.

And pvp-wise, warlock is a free kill unless you're willing to pvp with exclusively scrolls, but anyone with UMD can do that.

Nobody balances for PvP. You're out of luck.

Calling them "free kills" also is rather incorrect. You didn't meet the right ones.

Now, demon form;
You will LOSE out on AC if you go from normal form to demon form on those builds. You won't get armor AC anymore, nor a lot of your items.
You will LOSE your access to UMD which is pretty much your only way to pvp most tier 1 classes/builds.
You will also LOSE a whole lote of hide/ms if you're a hips lock.

The only thing good about the demon form is self-regen and triggering traps, and you can already do both of those fine without guttural invocations. You are less effective as a demon in pretty much every other regard.

AC will be fine. UMD won't be needed. HiPSlocks do not take shape, come on .

[samb123]

Warlocks... aren't tier 1.

[...]

Um, I'm not sure you've played warlock in NWN2? I'm being facetious, but warlocks are very powerful in this game (more so than they are in PnP). It is more than fair to call warlocks tier 1 on this server and for NWN2 in general. With the right preparation, I can't think of a situation that a good warlock build canNOT handle.

[Slunko]

Right, I guess I'm looking at this from a pvp perspective which was pointed out is of no concern to the QC. My bad.