Is it just me, or...

[Steve]

but true legends never die.

Nor do any other Character unless the Player decides it.

Legend or Loser, the real truth is that one plays a "legend in their own mind" mostly, whereas I'd argue the POINT should be playing in a Legendary Campaign, Epic Storyline, Life-fulfilling Event, as part of a group experience.

Thus, both the minor and the major Roles are have purpose, in the total of the Tale.

[mrm3ntalist]

When in the forseeable future you see this "Sims-style benchwarming simulator with 1/2 statuses saying "Squire of the Silver Rose" and occasional Xvart grind runs."

The server has been here for many years, so I am curious when your assumptions might actually happen. Throughtout the years threads like this ( dont focus just on evil, players raise similar issues about good chars, races, classes feats etc ) pop-up every around 3 months. People who think they represent a play style, whether it is good or evil, orc or drow etc, raise the issues, while in fact they represent their inability to have fun, or get things done.

Instead of taking snipes at players who have statuses saying "Squire of the Silver Rose" - while in fact most of the said players now also have "7th Circle" as a status - it would be better to figure out how to have fun while playing this game. To paraphrase Druehan's signature, look in the mirror and hate the player, not the game.

Finally, dont think that because you play an evil character, you represent in any way that style of play. Many players and even staff members who thought so and made decisions based on that, they found the sad but true side of things - ie this game and community are bigger than any individual.

PS Despite the Cassandras along the years, BG and nwn2 are moving stronger than ever, despite any bumps and bruises.

I will also add, that the server extremely lacks evil character support. It is much harder to RP an evil toon itself for many reasons, and yet evil RP has no DM support now, sometimes even DM punishment instead. I have probably written about it before, but the most exciting thing at this server is IC conflicts, and lets be honest, without evil toons this server will soon turn into Sims-style benchwarming simulator with 1/2 statuses saying "Squire of the Silver Rose" and occasional Xvart grind runs.

This^

[Akroma666]

Evil RP threads pop up and die because players give up..

I use to try to create conflict in character right along side the red sorcereress, I was there when a ghast Lord was unleashed on FAI, shoot I was there when we even killed a cult of vampires, despite me trying to aid them. Fact of the matter is, guilds like The Silver Rose get attention because they have been around longer and their members become staff. Not to say it's a bad thing, but I've seen countless evil guilds try, fail, and get ignored. Even larger guilds like Ebon Blade and Red Wizards feel abandoned now. With the new PvP rules, what's the point in creating conflict? Someone could simply walk away.. vampire following behind them.

Evil threads pop up and die because evil gets tired of trying and being ignored. I for one will not claim to be evil, not anymore. Ever since Liliana retired, Storm is neutral.. Druegar is neutral.. at this point it's more productive to play a nature hermit than it is to play evil.

[Planehopper]

Even larger guilds like Ebon Blade and Red Wizards feel abandoned now.

Please don't speak for the Ebon Blade.

There is a hard truth that some people don't want to hear or acknowledge, and it is that there is a larger percentage of 'problematic' players involved with evil guilds and plots. This turns off staff, fellow players, and makes any long-term success as a guild difficult to maintain.

Evil guilds have always had a hard time. My bro and I (along with Iceshard, Eldur, and a handful of others) started the thieves/assassins guild back in the day and there were problems then as there are with "evil" guilds now.. but just as then and now, some of it was/is player-caused.

If all the guilds got their own houses in order, it would be much more appealing for DMs and fellow players alike.

[Akroma666]

Even larger guilds like Ebon Blade and Red Wizards feel abandoned now.

Please don't speak for the Ebon Blade.

^is an active member.. not much going on that isn't already a server wide event. The management and I are close and I think they would agree behind a closed door.

[Tekill]

It's like people are just using thier own personalities through the avatar of a level 30 whatever. But - how would I know that?
I just do not see the attempt to be something in character that they are totally not, in real life. Tell me how wrong I am about this- I probably am.
Okay, so maybe its more like there is a socially acceptable way of RPing now....and people are becoming too inhibited to try it a different way.

I guess the more I think on it, these gripes are issues that have always been around to some degree or another. I am probably just as guily of it at times.

The original post has kind of stumped me. Its a good question!
I want to say yeah it is different now. But then again maybe it is just my perspective has changed now that I am am experienced. Maybe not much as really changed...

I do still think it is more social and less adventure these days. It feels there are a lot more Marriages now, more 'parties' and similar such social engagements. Less adventure in general with is no element of danger in our RP!
- have we all become domesticated?!?!

We know the maps and the mobs like the back of our hands...that would be part of it.
But-

It was once upon a time, where it was actually a bit spooky walking the trade way alone. Who knows what lurked in the dark in those days. I do not think I ever got pk'd or anything serious, but the element of danger was there.
Now- I do not have a fear in the world.

Back when I was new, I remember every once in awhile a groups of shady characters usually dressed in black would hang out at the FAI- barely saying a word, just kind of standing there. Sure sometimes causing trouble but usually just whispering to themselves, being all mysterious like.
These days, I have actaully been made fun of for wearing black - IC and OOC.

On the issue of evil RP: After many years on the server, watching multiple staff groups, I don't think the staff is anti-evil. I think what we tend to be is overly conservative.

Maecius made some good points discussing the difference in being able to manage good vs evil players. And besides even though he didnt say it, we all know that the murder hobo's out there tended to gravitate towards evil alignments.

It is kind of nice to know that this is not the elephant in the room anymore.

I think we should take it a step further and make a post in the Board index for new players that are thinking of rolling an evil character. That evil players are not going to be encouraged in the same way a good players are. Then explain why.
Bias or not, there is no harm or foul in saying right at the start- "Hey, if you are starting out, you may have more success on this server overall in the long run, if you play a nuetral or good alignment."
Dont ban evil players, but a warning would be a good idea. It will prevent future discouragement and disappointment. It will help new players get on board with the theme of the server right from the get go.
It would probably be easier for the DM's as well...for many reasons.

[aaron22]

I think we should take it a step further and make a post in the Board index for new players that are thinking of rolling an evil character. That evil players are not going to be encouraged in the same way a good players are. Then explain why.
Bias or not, there is no harm or foul in saying right at the start- "Hey, if you are starting out, you may have more success on this server overall in the long run, if you play a nuetral or good alignment."
Dont ban evil players, but a warning would be a good idea. It will prevent future discouragement and disappointment. It will help new players get on board with the theme of the server right from the get go.
It would probably be easier for the DM's as well...for many reasons

i addressed this about a year ago when i became fully vested in Orc RP. it is centered around Orcs, but the idea is kind of the same.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=60139

[Invoker]

but true legends never die.

Nor do any other Character unless the Player decides it.

Legend or Loser, the real truth is that one plays a "legend in their own mind" mostly, whereas I'd argue the POINT should be playing in a Legendary Campaign, Epic Storyline, Life-fulfilling Event, as part of a group experience.

Thus, both the minor and the major Roles are have purpose, in the total of the Tale.

In fact, when I say „legends“, I don’t mean the characters. I mean their „Epic Storylines“.

As the player of a significant amount of „Legendary Losers“, some retired for various reasons including death and becoming an NPC, I really don’t think you can afford to quote my post and add an *eyeroll*, no matter how frustrating the matter feels for you.

As for the „legends in their own mind“ thing...yes. That is, exactly, the heart of this game. Every player and DM have something „in their own mind“, then we bring it together and create the story. Your seem to imply one needs general consensus to play a hero or equivalent: that’s not the case.

The players are the „special characters“ of the game. Nobody gives a crap about Elminster, or Deus-Ex-Machina NPCs. When the world is not created and destroyed by players‘ hands, you‘re playing just another, more bugged MMO.

[Hoihe]

Where are you people finding all the social RP at? I can't for the life of mine find any RP that isn't "this person tortured me", "this person is killing people", "this thing is going to doom the entire world if we don't do something about it", "this evil guild is doing this and we need to stop it" and so on.

There isn't room for any normal social interaction because every time you try, you end up marginalizing "real issues" threatening the world.

Please show me where social RP is, because I miss it over the constant "world is ending"/"Mass murderer, we need to solve" stream. Oh, and the dealing with traumatized PCs is not exactly social RP. It's draining.

Now there is some non-intrigue RP somewhere, but usually it's in some random spot half-ways across the map with no reason to visit unless you already know people there AND know they hang out there.


And also... Why does everyone type so slow nowadays? Often I need to wait 1-2+ minutes for a short response. It'd be OK if I knew the player was a slow typer and such be forgiving, or if they responded with appropriate quantity for the time taken to write it. But no, most people semi-afk and read/watch youtube/whathave you rather than stay IC.

[Hammer_Song]

Please show me where social RP is, because I miss it over the constant "world is ending"/"Mass murderer, we need to solve" stream. Oh, and the dealing with traumatized PCs is not exactly social RP. It's draining.

You could come to the KH tavern. Us dwarves just hang around drinking and talking shit about anyone taller than 4'6".

Elves need not apply.

[Mercator]

Back when I was new, I remember every once in awhile a groups of shady characters usually dressed in black would hang out at the FAI- barely saying a word, just kind of standing there. Sure sometimes causing trouble but usually just whispering to themselves, being all mysterious like.
These days, I have actaully been made fun of for wearing black - IC and OOC.

Cosimo wears black as a satirical comment against the wearers of black, and actively takes the piss out of the guys who wear black and hoods and stand silently watching groups of people, all intimidating like. This is because he uses mockery/humour to defuse the fear that bad guys invoke (with mixed success! Recently it rather backfired on him with tragic results. Damn you Tamzim!)

If other characters are doing it now I am kinda counting this as an IC impact of his rp!

But is an IC thing, and ironically quite a large bluff as despite this, he actually has a healthy respect for the danger bad guys pose.

As you know I played Daug who was all dressed in spikey black and a mask, and was, I am told, intimidating at times. We got good feedback as Bregan for bringing some tension to surfacers (something the recent climate on the server has neutered). So it can still happen.

It is true that once you know the server, and are on to your second or third major character, and some of the mysteries of the IC factions are revealed, the world does feel smaller, and there is less feeling of danger. I think that is probably what you are sensing, Tek.

[casadechrisso]

Where are you people finding all the social RP at? I can't for the life of mine find any RP that isn't "this person tortured me", "this person is killing people", "this thing is going to doom the entire world if we don't do something about it", "this evil guild is doing this and we need to stop it" and so on.

There isn't room for any normal social interaction because every time you try, you end up marginalizing "real issues" threatening the world.

Please show me where social RP is, because I miss it over the constant "world is ending"/"Mass murderer, we need to solve" stream. Oh, and the dealing with traumatized PCs is not exactly social RP. It's draining.

Now there is some non-intrigue RP somewhere, but usually it's in some random spot half-ways across the map with no reason to visit unless you already know people there AND know they hang out there.

You're welcome to look out for my characters - especially Lydia and Aniel. No politics, no trauma, world's just fine as it is, "Orcs? haven't heard.", ... I wouldn't call them shallow, but my characters are usually more low key and not set out to save the world from all evil. They're not regular tavern goers though, just find them on the road looking for exactly the same as you do. I encountered much nice and casual roleplay at places like the Halls of Inner light and the Muse, but it's not exactly the places most of my characters have an IC reason to visit regulary.

And also... Why does everyone type so slow nowadays? Often I need to wait 1-2+ minutes for a short response. It'd be OK if I knew the player was a slow typer and such be forgiving, or if they responded with appropriate quantity for the time taken to write it. But no, most people semi-afk and read/watch youtube/whathave you rather than stay IC.

Ah yes, the usual "I have no problem multitasking". Either watching videos or being in 4 chats at once, and while they believe you don't notice I personally find it very rude, like "so that's how much my RP is worth to you thanks". I haven't encountered it much here though, and if I suddenly get bombarded by tells myself while in RP and can't keep up anymore I usually at least let you know.

[Sun Wukong]

And also... Why does everyone type so slow nowadays? Often I need to wait 1-2+ minutes for a short response. It'd be OK if I knew the player was a slow typer and such be forgiving, or if they responded with appropriate quantity for the time taken to write it. But no, most people semi-afk and read/watch youtube/whathave you rather than stay IC.

I think it is more due to the feeling of having to walk on egg shells.

[Steve]

@ Invoker:

Glad we appear to agree that Storylines are greater "legends" than the Characters within them, individually.

I never would have thought you, of all people, would consider any one of your Characters "Legendary Losers," but ya learn something every day, dontcha? Stil...what matter is so frustrating for me? I just want to make sure we're on the same page here.

I'm not implying others need to agree on another's "ability" to play a hero or equivalent. But as EM said earlier in this thread: if everyone is approaching their Character as the Utmost Uber Snowflake, the environment created is one that is more about proving the Characters' value as a Snowflake, than attention to any Storyline.

Furthermore, if "Every player and DM have something „in their own mind“, then..." is true, you are basically creating an environment where BOTH/ALL participants want/have to be the Star, each things they are "right," and neither will there be consensus nor enjoyment, in the end. Not good mate! This is where I personally think D&D becomes a special type of game, because in this instances where everyone believes "it should be this/mine way...," the Game has Dice Rolls/Difficulty Class build into it, thus, the end result is something left to chance, not to one or another's subjective opinion (and we know how THAT can go over, at times...).

When the world is not created and destroyed by players‘ hands...

When does this happen?!?

I can't even get a response in months to a simple effort for IC creation...or maybe you just have a "special character" relationship that I don't know about?!?

[Invoker]

I never would have thought you, of all people, would consider any one of your Characters "Legendary Losers," but ya learn something every day, dontcha? Stil...what matter is so frustrating for me? I just want to make sure we're on the same page here.

My 3 main characters (in the last 8 years) are, respectively, dead to protect someone, NPCed after having barely held their own in bids for godhood, and a shadow of their former selves (literally!!) after having been pounded into dust by a demigod. That isn't exactly "news"...

Yes, we're on the same page.

I'm not implying others need to agree on another's "ability" to play a hero or equivalent. But as EM said earlier in this thread: if everyone is approaching their Character as the Utmost Uber Snowflake, the environment created is one that is more about proving the Characters' value as a Snowflake, than attention to any Storyline.

It's what I meant with putting the special qualities at the setting's service, rather than straining the suspension of disbelief in the fashion you described. And that has nothing to do with "heroes", mind you: there are "Utmost Uber Snowflakes" that are no heroes at all, nor powerful. Not even close. And yet, they remain sufficiently annoying to make one wish to gouge one's eyes out.

Furthermore, if "Every player and DM have something „in their own mind“, then..." is true, you are basically creating an environment where BOTH/ALL participants want/have to be the Star, each things they are "right," and neither will there be consensus nor enjoyment, in the end. Not good mate! This is where I personally think D&D becomes a special type of game, because in this instances where everyone believes "it should be this/mine way...," the Game has Dice Rolls/Difficulty Class build into it, thus, the end result is something left to chance, not to one or another's subjective opinion (and we know how THAT can go over, at times...).

What you want to achieve is by no means in conflict with leaving players full freedom to create the character they want, and play it how they want, provided they respect the setting and their fellow players. How does leaving things to chance exclude what I said?! You talk about actions and developments, I talk about character creation and RP lines...

When the world is not created and destroyed by players‘ hands...

When does this happen?!?

When the DMs are on board.

I can't even get a response in months to a simple effort for IC creation...or maybe you just have a "special character" relationship that I don't know about?!?

I haven't made any such request in a long, long time. I'd say 3 years minimum, and I don't recall any even before, but I could have forgotten.

10/10 for insinuating I am privileged, btw. And then you say you're not frustrated?

(do-me) Jesus Christ