UD/Surface Crossing Rules

[adobongmanok]

If they do, then I guess they don't need RP excuse according to previous posts.

[Steve]

Is it just me or does anyone else think it is BREAKING THE IMMERSION AND/OR RAISON D'ETRE OF THIS SERVER to allow for PCs to interact with the World/NPCs while using the AFK tag?

[Valefort]

I think it's very eyeroll worthy but that's the price to pay for OOC fairness. Practically the ones who put the AFK tag simply put their gear needs above their RP for a small time window... Let their consciences judge them

[V'rass]

Um sorry but going to trade in Sshamath is a perfectly viable rp reason. Not only is there stuff there you cant get else where the whole lore and purpose of Sshamath is trade and anyone willing to take the risk of going is tolerated as long as they mind their bussiness and keep their mouths shut. They dont care if you are non-drow only that you have money to spend. Thats the whole point of Sshamath.

[mrm3ntalist]

Um sorry but going to trade in Sshamath is a perfectly viable rp reason. Not only is there stuff there you cant get else where the whole lore and purpose of Sshamath is trade and anyone willing to take the risk of going is tolerated as long as they mind their bussiness and keep their mouths shut. They dont care if you are non-drow only that you have money to spend. Thats the whole point of Sshamath.

You mean that Sshamath is the dnd equivalent of a modern day shopping mall, where everyone can casually go and do their shopping?

[Sun Wukong]

I'm not sure what this has anything to do with the question ^. I would ask for people to stay on topic.

It is on topic. Part of the surface/underdark interaction is player to player interaction and the actual quality of said interaction plays a role. Some player to player interaction might just not seem worth the effort it requires, and this aspect does not actually negate the role-play reason behind a character's current in game location. In fact it can be next to impossible to find out about that role-play reason unless it is stated in clear OOC terms.

You might think that someone is just visiting a 'Walmart' - and it could not be further away from the truth. Not to mention the possibility that the offending character is actually an odd looking surface/underdark character. Some player characters get to choose their realm after character creation, and some player races allow a curious range of character customization. After all, the surface has moon elves that look more like 'drow' than some of the dark elves of the underdark actually do.

-To sum it up, it is still not a valid RP reason to go shopping on the other side. Also, players (UD and Surfacers) can go to the other side and shop as long as they have AFK on their head and do about their business.

-UD/Surface RP rules are still in place.

So if I see surfacers that visits Sshamath and goes to the Gem Merchant as well as the Epic Merchant, and say "We are here to visit for trade" as an RP excuse, that's an automatic breaking the rules.

Lol, no. And you can read the related server rules over here:
General Server Rules: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36831
And PvP Rules: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3170

Expeditions to the other side have a clear set start and end period for a particular objective with the character returning to it's home setting after the period is over. Stating that you are there to defeat such and such creature, or to test your skill is not a valid RP reason, that is grinding. We also do not consider general exploration, or Drow raids on the surface as a valid RP reason, although such can be fodder for DM moderated events. Please PM the team regarding this.

Underdark players on the surface, and surface players within the tunnels of the Underdark, who have been identified are considered to have consented to PvP and may be killed on sight. The exceptions are for the city of Sshamath and the Upperdark, where all involved are still required to follow normal PvP rules.

• Characters outfitted in a way that completely hides their identifying features require the aggressor to apply normal PvP rules, regardless of which side the disguised character is from. The disguise must be complete and hoods by themselves do not count. Patterns of speech, accents, body language, and other distinctive qualities are discerned only through roleplay over time, and details such as "a funny-sounding name" or the size of the character alone do not count for the purposes of identification.

Therefore, trading with the gem merchant down there actually presents an opporturnity for an expedition with a clearly defined objective, and this fact alone presents an actual start and an end date to it. Especially if you have been hoarding up those gem stones for months and go down there with a full inventory. Not to mention that since the Sshamath is a city of arcane might, the players down there might be interested to purchase some of the diamonds people have found on the surface. Some find their fun role-playing a merchant behind a stall, and literally spend hours just waiting for a chance at such interaction.

As for the epic merchants, the last time I compared their lists, they were not exactly one to one. Therefore, once again, there is that possibility for an expedition with a clearly defined objective. Additionally, who knows if the 'offending' character is purchasing things in bulk and actually waiting to handle some cross realm epic item trading on the side, which is going to take place whether you like it or not.

You mean that Sshamath is the dnd equivalent of a modern day shopping mall, where everyone can casually go and do their shopping?

To a degree, yes. It is just in Sshamath your chance of encountering that "mentally challenged, physically stunted, intoxicated, spider petting adventurer" is far higher!

And without, the underdark would be just a collection of 'mentally challenged, physically stunted, intoxicated, spider petting adventurers' whose sole purpose seems to be to maintain a dead underdark.

[VDub]

Um sorry but going to trade in Sshamath is a perfectly viable rp reason. Not only is there stuff there you cant get else where the whole lore and purpose of Sshamath is trade and anyone willing to take the risk of going is tolerated as long as they mind their bussiness and keep their mouths shut. They dont care if you are non-drow only that you have money to spend. Thats the whole point of Sshamath.

I'm fairly sure that per lore Sshamath is rarely visited by surfacers if at all. A trade city, yes. But to underdarkers. Other drow cities and Svirfneblin and such. Surfacers should be soiling their drawers while down there. I don't care if you're epic or not. There are drow below that will eat you for breakfast, literally. To act as if there is not is metagaming.

[Sun Wukong]

I'm fairly sure that per lore Sshamath is rarely visited by surfacers if at all. A trade city, yes. But to underdarkers. Other drow cities and Svirfneblin and such. Surfacers should be soiling their drawers while down there. I don't care if you're epic or not. There are drow below that will eat you for breakfast, literally. To act as if there is not is metagaming.

You mean the *** level range drow players that attempt to PvP any * or ** level range underdark players - only to log out and vanish the moment their most recent victim logs back in with a character in the *** or 'unknown' level range?

[VDub]

I'm fairly sure that per lore Sshamath is rarely visited by surfacers if at all. A trade city, yes. But to underdarkers. Other drow cities and Svirfneblin and such. Surfacers should be soiling their drawers while down there. I don't care if you're epic or not. There are drow below that will eat you for breakfast, literally. To act as if there is not is metagaming.

You mean the *** level range drow players that attempt to PvP any * or ** level range underdark players - only to log out and vanish the moment their most recent victim logs back in with a character in the *** or 'unknown' level range?

I was more thinking about the NPC's. You know how on the surface we are supposed to be on edge on the FAI map due to invisible guards that patrol the area. Surfacers should be required to do the same below and if a DM catches them acting all nonchalant they should get a perma strike like surfacers do for PvPing on the FAI map.

And if a player gets beat in PvP then logs in with a higher lvl character to get payback, they should be banned.

[Sun Wukong]

Could you inform me what behaviour these underdark guards should be actually preventing? On the surface the guards are there prevent the drunken bums of the campfire from brawling and duking it out for pretty much any imagined offense. After all, these campfire bums are individuals capable of leveling small villages all on their own. It is bad for business to let such individuals cause trouble day in and out.

Also, wisdom is a rather common dump stat, and therefore acting nonchalant is just role-playing that good old character sheet. Not to mention that the short dark skinned elves are not as terrible as they are made to be to any seasoned adventurer, the drow are basically low level spawn mobs on this server.

And if a player gets beat in PvP then logs in with a higher lvl character to get payback, they should be banned.

It is more about how some players are very selective when it comes to picking trouble.

[VDub]

Could you inform me what behaviour these underdark guards should be actually preventing? On the surface the guards are there prevent the drunken bums of the campfire from brawling and duking it out for pretty much any imagined offense. After all, these campfire bums are individuals capable of leveling small villages all on their own. It is bad for business to let such individuals cause trouble day in and out.

Also, wisdom is a rather common dump stat, and therefore acting nonchalant is just role-playing that good old character sheet. Not to mention that the short dark skinned elves are not as terrible as they are made to be to any seasoned adventurer, the drow are basically low level spawn mobs on this server.

And if a player gets beat in PvP then logs in with a higher lvl character to get payback, they should be banned.

It is more about how some players are very selective when it comes to picking trouble.

I'm just going to respectfully back out of this conversation. These discussions are normally what make me decide to leave the server. I'll keep my posts to RP only. You obviously just want to argue. You are talking this server while I'm discussing lore. Apples and oranges.

[adobongmanok]

haha funny drow, buzz off I am shopping, no time for your mumble

That is literally how my drow reacts to the 'drow' that 'immerse' their 'speech' with 'drow language' for no other reason than to 'role-play' in the most 'agreeable' manner.

After all, there exists a multitude of reasons why a fully grown adult drow would be unable to speak properly.

• Setting based dietary limitions: Charasteristicly the underdark has only scarce sources of both edible food and fresh drinking water. Therefore, chronic starvation in early childhood may have not only stunted the height growth of drow populace, but also had a negative effect on the brain itself and produced the obvious difficulties when it comes to basic communication.
• Setting based dietary choices: Charasteristicly a life lived in the underdark is that of chronic misery. Thus it is easy to imagine how a member of the drow populace would be keen to find any relief to their lives filled with tedium of constant struggle and the horrors that linger as their constant companions. Therefore the slurred and broken speech some members of the drow populace show could be attributed as a side effect to a constant use of various intoxicants of curious natures and sources.
• Setting based social economics: Charasteristicly the underdark is a violent location. The basic premise is the surfival of the fittest and that translates to the age of adage of might creating right. The threat of violence is not something that awaits behind the distant horizon, because in the underdark it is staring right at you. Therefore, any unlocky bout of violance at any point of a character's life could have caused a brain injury that has resulted in a form of aphasia that makes it impossible to pronounce certain words correctly.
• Setting based religious tendencies: Charasteristicly the drow populace worships spiders. Spider adorn their weapons, armor, clothing, architecture, and the creature itself can be seen as something holy and its presence can be seen as highly positive. But if spiders are known for something other than their creepy number of hairy legs, it is the possibility of delivering a venomous or toxic bite. A bite is a sign of aggression, and when recieved from a creature considered as holy, instead of seeking appropriate medical aid the drow populace can have a tendency to attempt to hide this sign of 'divine' disfavour. Yet the venom or toxins in the spider's bite could potentionally limit the bitten party's ability to communicate due to suffering constant hallucianation and numbness of the tongue, alongside with respitatory difficulties.
• Setting based...: Charasteristicly you probably get the general gist of idea now...

Thus, the mental image I get from the above 'drow' characters that 'immerse' their 'speech' with 'drow language' for no other reason than to 'role-play' in the most 'agreeable' manner is that of an: mentally challenged, physically stunted, intoxicated, spider petting simpleton.

Yet curiously the players behind said characters rarely seem to agree with the said mental image. If it is brought up, they are at best confused or at worst offended by it. I do not know why, after all, it makes perfect sense based on the setting.

Thus it really is just a lot less hassle to say:

haha funny drow, buzz off I am shopping, no time for your mumble

Correct me if I'm wrong since English is indeed my 2nd language,

This quote pretty much explains your perception of UD players who speak in "flavor" language and nicely insulting them in a soft way.

Now, my question was the UD/Surface Rules are still in place and what is an acceptable reason of RP to cross-over and what is not? It seems to me it doesn't really have anything to do with the question. Not that I disregard your opinion, but I would like to understand the limitations of this UD/Surface rules of RP to cross not RP quality of UD. I do understand the point you are making about establishing clear intentions in IC doesn't really cement your validity to be on the other side until you do it OOC. For all I know you could be lying to meet "someone" and actually just be there.

Therefore, trading with the gem merchant down there actually presents an opporturnity for an expedition with a clearly defined objective, and this fact alone presents an actual start and an end date to it. Especially if you have been hoarding up those gem stones for months and go down there with a full inventory. Not to mention that since the Sshamath is a city of arcane might, the players down there might be interested to purchase some of the diamonds people have found on the surface. Some find their fun role-playing a merchant behind a stall, and literally spend hours just waiting for a chance at such interaction.

As for the epic merchants, the last time I compared their lists, they were not exactly one to one. Therefore, once again, there is that possibility for an expedition with a clearly defined objective. Additionally, who knows if the 'offending' character is purchasing things in bulk and actually waiting to handle some cross realm epic item trading on the side, which is going to take place whether you like it or not.

So, technically a UD character can go visit then Doron Amar as long as their valid reasoning is to visit the legendary merchant that sells legendary Elven goods. Am I correct on this?

TL;DR
UD Char can visit Doron Amar if he wants to meet legendary merchant and that would count as a valid RP?

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

haha funny drow, buzz off I am shopping, no time for your mumble

That is literally how my drow reacts to the 'drow' that 'immerse' their 'speech' with 'drow language' for no other reason than to 'role-play' in the most 'agreeable' manner.

After all, there exists a multitude of reasons why a fully grown adult drow would be unable to speak properly.

• Setting based dietary limitions: Charasteristicly the underdark has only scarce sources of both edible food and fresh drinking water. Therefore, chronic starvation in early childhood may have not only stunted the height growth of drow populace, but also had a negative effect on the brain itself and produced the obvious difficulties when it comes to basic communication.
• Setting based dietary choices: Charasteristicly a life lived in the underdark is that of chronic misery. Thus it is easy to imagine how a member of the drow populace would be keen to find any relief to their lives filled with tedium of constant struggle and the horrors that linger as their constant companions. Therefore the slurred and broken speech some members of the drow populace show could be attributed as a side effect to a constant use of various intoxicants of curious natures and sources.
• Setting based social economics: Charasteristicly the underdark is a violent location. The basic premise is the surfival of the fittest and that translates to the age of adage of might creating right. The threat of violence is not something that awaits behind the distant horizon, because in the underdark it is staring right at you. Therefore, any unlocky bout of violance at any point of a character's life could have caused a brain injury that has resulted in a form of aphasia that makes it impossible to pronounce certain words correctly.
• Setting based religious tendencies: Charasteristicly the drow populace worships spiders. Spider adorn their weapons, armor, clothing, architecture, and the creature itself can be seen as something holy and its presence can be seen as highly positive. But if spiders are known for something other than their creepy number of hairy legs, it is the possibility of delivering a venomous or toxic bite. A bite is a sign of aggression, and when recieved from a creature considered as holy, instead of seeking appropriate medical aid the drow populace can have a tendency to attempt to hide this sign of 'divine' disfavour. Yet the venom or toxins in the spider's bite could potentionally limit the bitten party's ability to communicate due to suffering constant hallucianation and numbness of the tongue, alongside with respitatory difficulties.
• Setting based...: Charasteristicly you probably get the general gist of idea now...

Thus, the mental image I get from the above 'drow' characters that 'immerse' their 'speech' with 'drow language' for no other reason than to 'role-play' in the most 'agreeable' manner is that of an: mentally challenged, physically stunted, intoxicated, spider petting simpleton.

Yet curiously the players behind said characters rarely seem to agree with the said mental image. If it is brought up, they are at best confused or at worst offended by it. I do not know why, after all, it makes perfect sense based on the setting.

Thus it really is just a lot less hassle to say:

haha funny drow, buzz off I am shopping, no time for your mumble

Correct me if I'm wrong since English is indeed my 2nd language,

This quote pretty much explains your perception of UD players who speak in "flavor" language and nicely insulting them in a soft way.

Now, my question was the UD/Surface Rules are still in place and what is an acceptable reason of RP to cross-over and what is not? It seems to me it doesn't really have anything to do with the question. Not that I disregard your opinion, but I would like to understand the limitations of this UD/Surface rules of RP to cross not RP quality of UD. I do understand the point you are making about establishing clear intentions in IC doesn't really cement your validity to be on the other side until you do it OOC. For all I know you could be lying to meet "someone" and actually just be there.

Therefore, trading with the gem merchant down there actually presents an opporturnity for an expedition with a clearly defined objective, and this fact alone presents an actual start and an end date to it. Especially if you have been hoarding up those gem stones for months and go down there with a full inventory. Not to mention that since the Sshamath is a city of arcane might, the players down there might be interested to purchase some of the diamonds people have found on the surface. Some find their fun role-playing a merchant behind a stall, and literally spend hours just waiting for a chance at such interaction.

As for the epic merchants, the last time I compared their lists, they were not exactly one to one. Therefore, once again, there is that possibility for an expedition with a clearly defined objective. Additionally, who knows if the 'offending' character is purchasing things in bulk and actually waiting to handle some cross realm epic item trading on the side, which is going to take place whether you like it or not.

So, technically a UD character can go visit then Doron Amar as long as their valid reasoning is to visit the legendary merchant that sells legendary Elven goods. Am I correct on this?

TL;DR
UD Char can visit Doron Amar if he wants to meet legendary merchant and that would count as a valid RP?

UD char can visit Doron Amar, but with AFK on and without IC communications. According to IC rules of the lands, drow are killed on sight once they spotted near Doron Amar, but elves are allowed in Sshamath (it is weird, I know).

As for gem trading that is stated further above as RP reason - lets be honest, this is an abuse. Speaking of abuses, Rockrun is an Upperdark town, so technically it is considered the same thing as FAI or Baldur's Gate for surfacers in terms of server rules (that is even more weird, but oh well....). I remember reading DM comments that grinding and even slaying a certain boss is not an RP reason, and I think gem trading is treated the same way unless AFK tag is on.

I think this is a matter of RP culture, since rules hardly prohibit using Sshamath and Rockrun as a walmart. Even if someone would be caught selling gems at Sshamath and reported, (s)he can always make an RP reason up and you won't prove anything.

[Sun Wukong]

Correct me if I'm wrong since English is indeed my 2nd language,

That is the case for me as well. So my assistance here comes with the risk of blind leading the blind.

This quote pretty much explains your perception of UD players who speak in "flavor" language and nicely insulting them in a soft way.

The thing to understand "flavor" is that people have different preferences. For example some consider the durian fruit to be a genuine delicacy, while for others its stench alone is akin to rubbing rotten onions against their eyeballs.

The previous quote explains my perception of UD characters who speak in "flavor" language.

Oh, and I forgot to add how some of the other possibilities is that the drow character that speaks in "flavor" is not from Sshamath. Or perhaps such a character is a former escaped slave who mixes in goblin words or something like that. Or perhaps it is only something that is pretending to be a dark elf, and so on, and so on...

There are so many valid reasons why a character does not speak properly, but as I said earlier, bringing this topic up in game usually confuses at best, or offends at worst. Thus it saves time to just ignore or avoid the characters that speak in "flavor".

Now, there are characters that speak with "flavor" on the surfrace as well. For example the dwarves can be rather difficult to communicate with - but at least their "flavor" is mostly based on actual English words.

Now, my question was the UD/Surface Rules are still in place and what is an acceptable reason of RP to cross-over and what is not? It seems to me it doesn't really have anything to do with the question. Not that I disregard your opinion, but I would like to understand the limitations of this UD/Surface rules of RP to cross not RP quality of UD. I do understand the point you are making about establishing clear intentions in IC doesn't really cement your validity to be on the other side until you do it OOC. For all I know you could be lying to meet "someone" and actually just be there.

Once again, how do you actually know of a character's in character reason to be anywhere? Either the player tells you in character, or out of character. Now, factor in that people have different tastes when it comes to "flavor" and this means that not all RP is perceived to be of equal quality.

Therefore:

haha funny drow, buzz off I am shopping, no time for your mumble

This is what my drow would say to another drow who speaks in "flavor" - because anything beyond that is usually just a waste of my time.

Oh and:

It is on topic. Part of the surface/underdark interaction is player to player interaction and the actual quality of said interaction plays a role. Some player to player interaction might just not seem worth the effort it requires, and this aspect does not actually negate the role-play reason behind a character's current in game location. In fact it can be next to impossible to find out about that role-play reason unless it is stated in clear OOC terms.

You might think that someone is just visiting a 'Walmart' - and it could not be further away from the truth. Not to mention the possibility that the offending character is actually an odd looking surface/underdark character. Some player characters get to choose their realm after character creation, and some player races allow a curious range of character customization. After all, the surface has moon elves that look more like 'drow' than some of the dark elves of the underdark actually do.

So, technically a UD character can go visit then Doron Amar as long as their valid reasoning is to visit the legendary merchant that sells legendary Elven goods. Am I correct on this?

TL;DR
UD Char can visit Doron Amar if he wants to meet legendary merchant and that would count as a valid RP?

Wear a proper disguise and visit the blacksmith in North-Western corner of the map. Do not cross the bridge Eastwards. Done did done.

If you want it to be more exciting experience, then get the DMs involved.

Or just put on that AFK tag and walk right in.

[Steve]

UD char can visit Doron Amar, but with AFK on and without IC communications.

How can anyone take this Server seriously, if such would be the case?

YOU MIGHT AS WELL JUST NOT ROLE-PLAY. The above simply breaks Server Rule #1, and with that Rule undermined, all other Rules become subject to interpretation. Furthermore, punishment applied under any other Rule "being broken" becomes a farce, since in the end, all Staff decisions come out of "interpretation" as well, thus coming full circle to establish that all Server Rules are up for interpretation, once again.



Ao help us.