UD/Surface Crossing Rules

[Akroma666]

Played UD twice.. too complicated to learn quests, grind areas, and just basic navigation. Trying again.. had no idea UD couldn't get exp on the surface.. tried to get some orc rp going as a poison smuggler.. then went grinding.. no exp=bummer.

Honestly, I don't care about the lack of grind zones in UD or inability to go on the surface. Would it be nice, yes, but not necessary. Underdark has it's own mechanics and play style, with them being limiting because drow are OP and we all know it. I do however feel that it would be nice to get exp on the surface, but the road to get there should be a highway to hell.. and if a higher level does escort a lowbie (was my case) you need a very good RP reason.

[Sun Wukong]

Played UD twice.. too complicated to learn quests, grind areas, and just basic navigation. Trying again.. had no idea UD couldn't get exp on the surface.. tried to get some orc rp going as a poison smuggler.. then went grinding.. no exp=bummer.

Actually because of the scaling difficulty, which means that certain areas give good enough experience for far larger level range than before, the underdark has become a rather simple environment to grind in. Not to mention that the quests that are offered down there handily spin around the areas you would naturally go to. As for finding your way around, apart from some of the upperdark areas - majority of underdark areas have the chalenge rating listed next to the destination. Getting around is no longer that much of an impossibility. Altough depending on your character some areas are more difficult than others - hence the CR is just a recommendation.

Thus if you want to get a hang out of underdark, I would recommend a high strength character with spell resistance. (The spell resistance cloak can be an alternative.) Basically you can just run through areas and pummel things to dust, while picking up everything that is not nailed down for a lot of gold. The epic items become a matter of when you bother to buy them, and what you would like to buy next.

You can literally get a ton of quest experience with very minimal risk. AC and spell resistance are pretty what makes a PvE king down there. Now, some things have DR, 10 and 20 points, thus a way to get past that is a big boon.

But if you want to know more, just send a PM.

[Darradarljod]

If I had one plakta for every surfacer I met in Kro's Labryinth over the last 24 hours I would have 4 plaka (encountered 2 soloing on my first visit, and one group of 2 on my second visit). Can someone please direct me to or quote the official DM ruling about drow adventuring topside and surfacers adventuring in UD areas? (we're talking about adventure & loot / grinding and I imagine questing). Noticing Kro's Labryinth seems to be a hot spot for surface characters to adventure in the UD.

[Steve]

It's been empirically proven that Kro's and the other Upperdark Areas give higher XP-per-kill-per-CR and the Loot from Chests and Drops is waaaaay better.

So that's why its FUNTIME down there...just below the surface...where wounds fester....

[Invoker]

Personal opinion:

I honestly don't understand where these notions of UD deserving the same amount of areas and grind locations come from. UD has always been a tight-knit community in the past, which welcomed newcomers and helped them get on their feet. That was always its selling point, great community. Yeah, it had its issues, like the lack of places to level up (aka the endless mines spam), but it certainly never showed the need, desire nor numbers to support the notion of equality. I have played in the UD twice in my 5 years here, and I had a lot of fun both times. Without spending 90% of my time on the surface.

This isn't a gods damned movement for human rights, fighting for the poor oppressed underground players to have equality. This is a server, with limited space and a desire to cater to many playstyles and character concepts. Underdark is a niche part of it, and it gets attention as such.

From what I can see, we currently have a decent number of UD players who actually stick to the UD and focus their roleplay down there, compared to the chaos and the ridiculous situation from half a year ago. With a bit more DM attention, the place could probably flourish for a time.

Excellently put in its entirety.

And your impression, expressed in the last paragraph, is absolutely correct.

[adobongmanok]

By the way, it seems people are forgetting the goal of this thread which was to highlight that the UD/Surface Crossing Rules needs to be updated since that Exp/Loot Mechanics was implemented. By no means I am not advocating any changes in the maps nor game mechanics.

I mean unless there's masochist UD player "grinding" his/her enjoyment without gaining exp or loot in the surface and vice versa, then I guess props to him/her. I REALLY doubt there's still players that are grinding and looting on the other side.

My suggestion is to change the rules for the UD/Surface Crossing Rules and say something like:

The Following RP Reasoning does not allow you to cross UD/Surface Line:
1) Hunting a monster
2) Training
3) etc.

[Invoker]

The Following RP Reasoning does not allow you to cross UD/Surface Line:
1) Hunting a monster
2) Training
3) etc.

It's not possible to do that, because in some cases, they do.

The situation needs evaluation on a case-by-case basis, and solid RP investment to be justified.

In your examples: getting online and suddenly deciding to "Hunt a monster" Above as an UDer, isn't very solid. However, having someone in the School of Magic needing a specific component which can only be obtained by a rare monster's carcass, and tasking you to hunt said monster after you spent weeks studying its strengths, weaknesses, environment and such...that looks like a good RP reason.

What you are asking cannot be done without making colossal mistakes.

[thebeasttt]

//I don't understand the purpose of setting artificial barriers on an RP server. Adventuring in the UD is a significant part of D&D as a whole and given how small the UD playerbase is, you would think the devs would want there hard work to actually be used.

Setting up invisible barriers just cheapens the setting as a whole. You might as well just close off the path to the UD, requiring DM intervention to even cross over at all.

[Empoweredfan]

There isn't an invisible barrier on the server. If you want to go to the UD, and to the surface, you can. The only difference now, from how it was, is that you don't get loot or XP while doing so. The only way to get those, would be through a DM event. Basically, the only gain one should get from going to either places from the other side, is RP based.

[casadechrisso]

I have the urge to dig this one up again, because as a fairly new player I only "tested" this for the first time yesterday (surfacer) and two nights earlier (drow). I'd call myself fairly neutral on the matter too, I only rolled a drow a few weeks ago and generally prefer the surface. Anyway, as far as drow goes, nothing unexpected, I went to the surface, Soubar, some areas in the north and could neither loot nor get killing xp.

As a surfacer down in the UD I have to ask though, where exactly does the Upperdark end the Underdark start? Even as a drow I don't think I have seen an Underdark map yet, every map I see says "Upperdark: xxxx", and I got xp and loot on every map from the Ogre Caves right to Sshamath, with only one exception being the West of Grottoes map with one chest and like three kobolds in it. The lootable/grindable maps also include some of the earlier go-to areas for loot, like the Gauth Grottoes or River Rift (I believe Kro's too?), not to mention that the loot table seems to be far better in the UD. Oh, and you can do quests, the Rockrun ones, even at least one in Sshamath (weapon delivery). To be fair though, some Soubar quests can be done by Drow as well.

Anyway, this should not be a complaint, just my personal experience that indeed Underdark residents got the worse end of the deal, and I'd agree with the earlier suggestion of opening some of the northern areas for UD players, mechanics-wise, at least a handful where some nosy drow explorers might sniff around in character (Moor, mountains, tundra, around Soubar...). Not to get them super cool loot or grinding places, more like just not punishing them for exploration and balancing things a little bit in their favor.

[metaquad4]

There isn't an invisible barrier on the server. If you want to go to the UD, and to the surface, you can. The only difference now, from how it was, is that you don't get loot or XP while doing so. The only way to get those, would be through a DM event. Basically, the only gain one should get from going to either places from the other side, is RP based.

I agree.

I think the rule is obsolete, because of this script. The only reason -to- go up or go down is because of RP. Since you can't grind on the opposite side, or do quests. The DMs can't throw you back down because you were "just up to grind" since that is impossible now.

This script is good for UD and Surface travel, because it only allows people to travel up and down for RP's sake.

On the other hand, its a shame the script exists. The concept is pretty silly and counter-acts attempts at adventure RP with people from the UD, or with people from the surface for UDers.

The only reason it has to exist in the first place is because BG put up that anti-RP rule in place to begin with. The rule's existence is the RP equivalent of an invisible barrier in traditional gaming. Its no more different than saying "A DM can question you if you go to Roaringshore and if you can't provide a suitable RP excuse then BACK YOU GO". Or replace Roaringshore with any other location, really.

I mean, really. We had Avernus for a time, and people didn't require a suitable RP excuse to visit there. There is always the "Oh, the Underdark is so dangerous" excuse, but that excuse is undermined in so many ways. How many characters have we had that entered extreme danger before? Every single metaplot revolves around an impossible threat. Many characters have now traveled to and from Avernus, and even before that DMs threw the 9 Hells out a lot in events. Not to mention places like the Far Realms have been used before. The only excuse for the rule's existence (also, the rule seems to require excusing to even exist) is pretty bloody moot.

Any rule that exists should serve the sole benefit of enhancing RP, or (in cases like "no flaming" and "no harassment") serving as basic codes of behavior to remove OOC toxicity. Putting in place a rule that hinders RP is counterproductive to an RP server.

Imagine, DMing at a table and constantly questioning players when they do something unexpected. Imagine, asking for them to provide their "excuse" for their IC actions.

Or, for a more comparable example, your DM provides you and your friends with an entrance to the UD. But, they OOCly bar you from entry and refuse to play until you give them an "excuse" for why you'll decide to enter. This is what this rule feels like, essentially. A bit (person), I suppose.

Fortunately for us:

1) DMs don't really enforce this rule. I'm not sure if its due to general inactivity or having better things to do than stomping on people (probably this one, considering they usually are busy with events or requests).

2) The script provides a pretty powerful argument against a DM, if they do decide to interrogate you. Since you physically can't be down in the UD or up on the surface to grind/quest, it doesn't leave you with any options except to RP.

Of course, the counter then becomes what is valid RP? Well, everyone should be doing anything in character for a valid RP reason. That is pretty much an essential component of an RP server.

There is also the counter argument "well, they could be up to PvP". With the new PvP rules, that is pretty hard to do. You can't actually be PvPed unless you were:

A) ICly being aggressive or irritating to the character.
B) Rejected your RP out.

And since the defender chooses the RP out with the new rules, there is pretty much no excuse for someone if they do end up getting PvPed. They asked for it, one way or the other, since the new rules favor the "defender" heavily.

So that argument is pretty hard to justify, since the aggressor doesn't have very much power to force PvP.