Warlock - word of changing

[Nemni]

And yes, they are a "tier1" class with much variety.

Variety comes in various ways. In invocations it's quite limited, in other ways it's good. Invocation selection is kinda important for this class though.
If the warlock is a tier1 class, where do you place your divine casters for example? It's certainly been my experience that they have an easier time in most situations. Perhaps it comes down to how crowded one thinks a "tier" should be.

[samb123]

If the warlock is a tier1 class, where do you place your divine casters for example? It's certainly been my experience that they have an easier time in most situations.

Clerics are also tier 1.

Perhaps it comes down to how crowded one thinks a "tier" should be.

The tier system is this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthre ... om-MinMax)

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Warlocks are tier 1, for our server, according to the Tier System for Classes. (Do note that, in PnP, warlocks are considered tier 4.) This is a long-standing system, for classes in D&D 3.5. People don't just pull the tier system out of their butt and go, "X is tier 1!"

If you're curious as to why, for PnP, certain classes are ranked how they are, here's a breakdown: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthre ... om-MinMax)

[mrm3ntalist]

And yes, they are a "tier1" class with much variety.

Variety comes in various ways. In invocations it's quite limited, in other ways it's good. Invocation selection is kinda important for this class though.
If the warlock is a tier1 class, where do you place your divine casters for example? It's certainly been my experience that they have an easier time in most situations. Perhaps it comes down to how crowded one thinks a "tier" should be.

There is variety. You can build DEX, CHA or CON ( my favorite ) pure warlocks. The same can be applied with 4level dips such as BG in case of a CHA warlock for saves and DS, or Rogue for skills and evasion. Then there are the heavy multiclassed combos such as warlock/DaggerspellMage etc.

Regarding the invocation limitation, that is by design and unfortunately there is not much that can be done with it, unless you have something to suggest. The DCs will never be as good as the wizards for obvious reasons that we can all understand. Then there are invocations that are must have. Noxious, Vitriolic, DarkForesight, RetributiveInvisibility for example are invocations that is impossible to pass up. Unless we nerf them or create something more powerful, these will be some of the standard invocations.

This class has been discussed a lot in the past and has been reworked/buffed more than any other class. Personally I dont have any more suggestion about further improving the invocations, because it is difficult to change their current status without doing something drastic. If you, or anyone else have any suggestion, of course they would be welcome and in lack of better words, refreshing.

As far as the comparison with the divine casters there are some differences mostly in terms into how long each class can sustain, with the diviners having more burst damage in terms to short term buffs, while warlocks will hardly ever need to rest. Consistent damage from blasts that bypassed SR, Concealment, DR, 50+AC and very high regen make this class tier1 not only in pve, but pvp as well if built accordingly.

[Steve]

Steve, you take what chad said out of context then simplify it.

Absolutely not! Casters gained in Summoning and Polymorphing AFTER we had long established their "Tier 1 whatever" spot on BGTSSC. That Warlocks being RIGHT NOW Tier 1 yet NOT getting additional gains as did casters with Summoning/Polymorphing, just doesn't equal out.

Nachti did a very good ( and a lot of ) work on the polymorph system and had to endure the nerf this, nerf that..

My comments above and above that have nothing to do with any association with lack of appreciation for what Nachti did, so please don't go insinuating that into your reply. I've thanked him personally and directly every time I've had the chance, both on these Forums, in PMs and in-game.

So here's the deal: on BGTSCC there are these Tier 1 Classes/builds, and people want to play them for X reason. What players also want is for non-Tier 1 Classes/builds to equal Tier 1, for whatever reasons (but we probably can easily define why).

Thus with the rational that BGTSCC will avoid at all turns increasing content of Classes/Builds to Tier 1, and the dissatisfaction with the Playerbase that this then pigeon-holes many power hungry players into cookie-cutter Builds and homogenizes the Server in general considering Character Sheets, the possible best solution is to look at...wait for it...nerfing down Tier 1 Classes to Tier 2 or Tier 3, and thus leveling the playing field for all.

Nerfs.

Viva le Valefort!!!

[Invoker]

So here's the deal: on BGTSCC there are these Tier 1 Classes/builds, and people want to play them for X reason. What players also want is for non-Tier 1 Classes/builds to equal Tier 1, for whatever reasons (but we probably can easily define why).

It's not a problem with the game.

The vast majority of the players don't even know what constitutes Tier 1, nor care. Let alone a class "be equal" to another. Most of the complaints want to empower Tier 1 material, while complaining about Tier 2 options being too powerful.

There is no way QC can balance according to "what players want", because it's rarely factual.

Balancing on perception brings forth stuff like "let's make Create Greater Undead 1 min/lvl, because the Summon Creature line of spells was made that long!" in a vacuum. It's catastrophic.

Thus with the rational that BGTSCC will avoid at all turns increasing content of Classes/Builds to Tier 1, and the dissatisfaction with the Playerbase that this then pigeon-holes many power hungry players into cookie-cutter Builds and homogenizes the Server in general considering Character Sheets, the possible best solution is to look at...wait for it...nerfing down Tier 1 Classes to Tier 2 or Tier 3, and thus leveling the playing field for all.

This isn't a competitive game. It wasn't created like that (with categories like Supports, Gankers, Carries, Semi-Carries and the likes), thus you cannot do what you say. If you nerf a Tier 1, the result will not necessarily be to bring it to Tier 2. If you go at it the wrong way, you'll most likely break it, so that it suddenly becomes unplayable. Even if you do it right, later additions can cause issues due to combinative factors: that is why you cannot balance without perspective.

QC has been doing a much better job than what you state above.

Moreover, "Leveling the playing field" has never been a D&D concern. Nor should it be ours. The aim is for all characters to be fully playable, and bring something unique to the table, and to promote party play. Classes being able to solo do not constitute an issue for party play, because no single character can do alone as well as two others built to complement each other. This way, the server caters to all playstyles, with emphasis on RP and grouping together.

Nerfs.

Viva le Valefort!!!

Before nerfing, you should know what to nerf, and how. "Nerf Tier 1!" when one doesn't even know what constitutes Tier 1 is already a curious desire. In this context, it's highly unlikely the right things will be tweaked.

[Steve]

All characters are fully playable. This says nothing about mechanics, nor Tier 1, Tier 2, etc.

A character on BGTSCC can be totally without mechanical power, and still have a role to play, possibly a great role (!), but again, this topic is not about Characters but Tier 1 builds, mechanics, mechanical power, etc.

Character comes out of how a Player plays a build, I'd say...from Tier 1 down to Tier 10.

I'm not arguing that Players are right. I pointing out what players often request...and they get it denied plenty because yes, BGTSCC is not a vacuum and the issue of power creep is taken into account...except when it isn't.

This might not be a competitive game, but plenty are playing it that way. PvP for the sake of "braggers' rights" has always been evident on BGTSCC.

I'm not dogging QC here, but it is correct to see how supposed Top Tier classes/builds have benefited from recent custom changes...but even then, I'm not complaining about the result because I enjoy the result! But let's face facts: those changes came about because a Dev got the mind and had the energy to do the work, and otherwise, that Content would never have arrived. Which is important to say because this thread actually hit a good note in reaching a supported conclusion that if a Dev wanted to make new (balanced) forms for Word of Changing, that change could find legs.

But no Dev, no issue, right?

Leveling the playing field HAS been a concern in the past multiple times on BGTSSC. Maybe it is not a general concern, but often enough a Class, PrC or custom content gets a nerf. Balancing = leveling the playing field.

It is stating the obvious that nerfing Tier 1 requires knowing what to nerf. There are plenty of known knowns here!!!

[Nemni]

Before nerfing, you should know what to nerf, and how. "Nerf Tier 1!" when one doesn't even know what constitutes Tier 1 is already a curious desire. In this context, it's highly unlikely the right things will be tweaked.

Much agreed. Any nerfing needs to start at the top to be fair and effective, but for that to happen there needs to be a consensus of what the top is. That's hard to reach. Making bad abilities less bad is a much smaller task.

There is variety. You can build DEX, CHA or CON ( my favorite ) pure warlocks. The same can be applied with 4level dips such as BG in case of a CHA warlock for saves and DS, or Rogue for skills and evasion. Then there are the heavy multiclassed combos such as warlock/DaggerspellMage etc.

Yes, no arguments here. It's a big part of what makes the class fun.

Regarding the invocation limitation, that is by design and unfortunately there is not much that can be done with it, unless you have something to suggest. The DCs will never be as good as the wizards for obvious reasons that we can all understand. Then there are invocations that are must have. Noxious, Vitriolic, DarkForesight, RetributiveInvisibility for example are invocations that is impossible to pass up. Unless we nerf them or create something more powerful, these will be some of the standard invocations.

I don't think we need to buff other invocations so that they are as good as say RetributiveInvisibility. Choices don't need to be made optimal for there to be an improvement in variety. If the choice is at least good, if not the best, then there's a greater chance that more people will pick it. This is basically the thinking behind feats like hide in shadows, right? And improving the worst cleric domains while still letting the best ones remain on top.

For word of changing it would mean something like what I already suggested: merge items like shapechange, improve form selection with warlock appropriate forms (such as devil/demon/fey/etc), and allow a lesser version of hideous blow to be active in form (but no active casting). Numbers can be crunched when/if someone starts to work on this.

[Invoker]

The foundations of your reasoning are partly laid on false assumptions and misunderstandings.

All characters are fully playable. This says nothing about mechanics, nor Tier 1, Tier 2, etc.

I obviously meant mechanically playable in a Tier context. Everything you can log in with is "playable", but that was clearly not the point. The problem is, knowledgeable players know almost everything has Tier 1 and Tier 2 build options at the very least, and Tier 2 means strong. Notable exceptions were classes like Barbarian and Swashbuckler, which had particular issues in a percentage of the server areas that was deemed too vast, and thus they have been revamped to solve the problem.

I'm not arguing that Players are right. I pointing out what players often request...and they get it denied plenty because yes, BGTSCC is not a vacuum and the issue of power creep is taken into account...except when it isn't.

Developers make mistakes too. It's easy to underestimate a coefficient or a particular ability, when you have a lot to code. For free. When "it isn't", it's not intentional.

This might not be a competitive game, but plenty are playing it that way. PvP for the sake of "braggers' rights" has always been evident on BGTSCC.

That's a player problem. Devs can't redesign people's heads. Not to mention, crying on the forums for buffs or nerfs is the real shame. Certainly not losing PvPs in a cooperative game.

I'm not dogging QC here, but it is correct to see how supposed Top Tier classes/builds have benefited from recent custom changes...but even then, I'm not complaining about the result because I enjoy the result! But let's face facts: those changes came about because a Dev got the mind and had the energy to do the work, and otherwise, that Content would never have arrived. Which is important to say because this thread actually hit a good note in reaching a supported conclusion that if a Dev wanted to make new (balanced) forms for Word of Changing, that change could find legs.

So, Devs don't always consult QC before introducing changes, and are generally not as experienced players as QCers are. QC gives feedback on what's problematic, numbers get tweaked when someone has time to do it.

This isn't a company. The process doesn't need to be perfect. It's already a miracle it even exists, since there isn't a dollar in it for anybody, and the game's too old, and bugged.

Leveling the playing field HAS been a concern in the past multiple times on BGTSSC. Maybe it is not a general concern, but often enough a Class, PrC or custom content gets a nerf. Balancing = leveling the playing field.

There you go. NOPE!

The reason the content gets nerfed is to keep it in line with the playing environment and, reflexively, DM events. You can't level the playing field the way you describe, because in D&D, the playing field is NOT level. The point is for every character to bring something UNIQUE to the table. NOT equal. Actually, the OPPOSITE of "equal" .

Example: Hierophant vs Warpriest vs Thaumaturge. Are they all balanced with respect to each other, power-wise? NO. Do they all bring something different to the table, mechanically speaking as well as RP-wise? YES. Are they all worth taking? YES. Is any of them a balance concern? NO. You can tweak them IF A DEV HAS THE TIME, but it's not considered worth of a dev's time.

That needs to be clear, otherwise everything you say is based on different criteria with respect to QC. No wonder your expectations aren't matched.

It is stating the obvious that nerfing Tier 1 requires knowing what to nerf.

It's not obvious. Even a knowledgeable player like Nemni, with a 2009 account and a place in QC might not know Warlocks are Tier 1.

This game is very strange. Documentation is far from exhaustive, and even when present, often contradictory. The playerbase isn't (and has never been) big enough to have explored everything the active development of BGTSCC has to offer, mechanically speaking.

I made a MaA in February, and it quickly demonstrated you don't need a Dwarven Defender to be a Tier 1 non-caster. Because that was the stance, back then. Now, it's suddenly clear to most MaA is immensely powerful.

Spirit Shaman has been considered "bad" for ages. Some say Sorcerer is "weak". Fighter "underpowered". We had arguments on Bard needing "a buff".

I mean...I could go on. But by now, I think you see my point.

[chad878262]

I mean no disrespect when I say that many requests are made due to players not taking the time to learn to play their chosen character build. I have had countless discussions on the forums, in game and over PM (in game one is the only one I find mildly annoying btw, unless I'm on a QC character) discussing with players issues they have with their character build. Almost invariably the issue is they are simply not using a part of that characters designed abilities or the available consumables designed to help builds that have certain weak points.

If you're going to play a TWF build that doesn't have sneak dice from scratch with NO MULING, for example, you had best be ready to:
- Buy potions of mage armor, shield, barkskin and heroism in the early levels.
- Continue buying potions (or a wand) of shield, heroism, and improved mage armor in the mid levels and all the way to Epics (though likely will replace shield wand with use/day broach (carrying 5 gives 25 minutes of shield per rest at a cost of ~14K each or 70K total).
- Mind your saves or Spell resistance. An amulet is relatively easy to find or purchase from other players with 28 SR which will be useful all the way in to the late teens/maybe even early 20s. 32 SR Cloak is available, but without appraise skill will cost you...unless you're smart and use one of our wonderful player negotiators! There are also MANY +saves items available which are worth spending the money on.
- Build for damage! This is something you can not buff long term. Wands of Flame Weapon only last 3 minutes and it would cost two charges to apply on both weapons. Any other damage buff, such as holy weapon lasts even shorter. Therefore, as stated above you can buff your AB, AC, Saves, but really need to mind your damage. Either by going STR Ranger or if DEX based getting Deadly Defense, by taking fighter feats and/or other classes that add bonus damage to each weapon or dipping some class to grab EDM (or a combination thereof).

This is just one example, and I use it because I've had so many requests over the years from players saying TWF builds without sneak dice are 'unplayable' or that their particular build should be made better. Almost invariably they've built some dex based PTWF build without getting enough damage to make it viable... Even after the introduction of Deadly Defense some will say "but it's 2 feats for only 2.5 damage!" disregarding that they also get 3 AC for the loss of AB that they have ways of negating, and thus have actually improved on 2 weaknesses.

With Warlock, I think most people don't truly understand how powerful this class is. A CON-Lock (M3nt's favorite) is likely one of the very top builds you can have in both PvE and PvP, to the point that if it was possible to solo the White Dragon, I would think of some type of Lock 27/ DS 3 (or BG3) with max CON. This is why I urge caution even if a dev does decide to try and bring more "options". It is an immensely powerful class in the right hands that can turn almost all PvE content in to 'experience cows' and most other players in to speed bumps.

[Steve]

You and I have an issue with semantics, Invoker.

The reason the content gets nerfed is to keep it in line with the playing environment and, reflexively, DM events. You can't level the playing field the way you describe, because in D&D, the playing field is NOT level. The point is for every character to bring something UNIQUE to the table. NOT equal. Actually, the OPPOSITE of "equal" .

To me, a level playing field is one where there are no Tier 1 Classes/Builds that can do everything and sometimes do one-to-multiple things that a Tier 2 or Tier 3 Class/build is specialized for, your "bringing something unique to the table."

a level playing field = a situation in which everyone has a fair and equal chance of succeeding [mechanically].

unique = being the only one of its kind; unlike anything else [mechanically].

Unfortunately, neither of the above quotes can be truly achieved on BGTSCC, because the options are quite finite. A Character, however, is infinite, because that is what a Player brings/creates above/on top/from out/through the mechanics and/or limitations—the finite—of a build (and Character Sheet).

Put a Tier 1 build in a collaborative group of Tier 3s, and it will dominate...all except where the aspect of "character" is manifested. We've all seen the Favored Soul rofflestomp mechanically, but when it comes to "character," Sir Divinely Impressive fails to actually impress with Character (resides with Player).

But really, I don't know why I'm even responding to you anymore?!

With Warlock, I think most people don't truly understand how powerful this class is.

I'm with you, Chad: Warlock is very powerful on BGTSCC. And as others have pointed out, there are probably 6-7 different ways to utilize Warlock in a build and all of them are mechanically powerful AND provide Variety of Character pathways.

But again...look at the OP of this thread. It is about Word of Changing form options!!!! And nothing about making those forms uber powerful breakingthegameinsanepowerfulaaaaarrrrggghhhh!!!!!

[Invoker]

You and I have an issue with semantics, Invoker.

Your next entry will make abundantly clear this has nothing to do with semantics.

The reason the content gets nerfed is to keep it in line with the playing environment and, reflexively, DM events. You can't level the playing field the way you describe, because in D&D, the playing field is NOT level. The point is for every character to bring something UNIQUE to the table. NOT equal. Actually, the OPPOSITE of "equal" .

To me, a level playing field is one where .....

Seriously. You "replied" to my post but didn't read it, and answered points never made.

Semantics aren't the problem.

Unfortunately, neither of the above quotes can be truly achieved on BGTSCC, because

Because as stated before (multiple times), D&D doesn't have a level playing field, nor is intended to have one. And neither does BGTSCC.

Variety is achieved the way I described, and if you challenge that statement, then provide me your example and I'll show you otherwise.

But really, I don't know why I'm even responding to you anymore?!

You aren't. You're talking to yourself.

[chad878262]

look at the OP of this thread. It is about Word of Changing form options!!!! And nothing about making those forms uber powerful

By the fourth post it was brought up the forms needed to be made more powerful and several other posts have echoed this.

[Steve]

You can't level the playing field the way you describe, because in D&D, the playing field is NOT level.

No shit sherlock. But this is BGTSCC Server, where many changes—and omissions—have been made to D&D rules (mechanics).

if you challenge that statement, then provide me your example...

^^ You're welcome buddy!

[Steve]

By the fourth post it was brought up the forms needed to be made more powerful and several other posts have echoed this.

Which is why its probably good we all ignore Invoker from here on out and stick to the OP request!

[chad878262]

By the fourth post it was brought up the forms needed to be made more powerful and several other posts have echoed this.

Which is why its probably good we all ignore Invoker from here on out and stick to the OP request!

That's never how it works though. The conversation morphs and should a dev choose to take this on its highly unlikely they'd only look at the first post. I fail to see anything invoker has said which is inaccurate, in any case. As much as has been customized for this server it's still D&D. Just because you don't see eye to eye doesn't mean either one of you don't make some valid points. However, what you propose of balance is impossible with the resources we have and the game we're working with. It is impossible to make a fighter balanced against a wizard and still have it even mildly resemble the game we play.