The case for expanding the playstyles available to DC based

[aaron22]

ok.. every class has access to displacement and mirrors and any other spell that can be wanded or pot. not a warlock perk. does that mean that archers with unlimited ammo bows are ruining the server. how much damage can a F/OOBI/EA put out in a round? i know its way more than 105. the damage for a lock needs to be significantly better that that to be considered good. even if used in chain, cone or spear.


and DC 32 works on most mobs is not very helpful. most of us do not start toons at level 30 to get that DC and have to fight mobs to get there. at level 20 the DC is considerably lower and doesnt work well against mobs at or near our CR. it always seems you are one area CR behind it working at ~25% rate.

[chad878262]

ok.. every class has access to displacement and mirrors and any other spell that can be wanded or pot. not a warlock perk. does that mean that archers with unlimited ammo bows are ruining the server. how much damage can a F/OOBI/EA put out in a round? i know its way more than 105. the damage for a lock needs to be significantly better that that to be considered good. even if used in chain, cone or spear.

Every class has UNLIMITED access to displacement? nope... Wizards or Sorcs can get as many as 6 minutes out of it if extended, but otherwise wands and per day items last 54 seconds (cloak has 3/day). Warlocks can reapply it whenever needed.

Does F/OOBI/EA do that 105 damage as an AoE? Warlocks may not kill individual creatures as quickly, but they can kill 3-4 enemies just as quickly as anyone else... killing 4 enemies in 4 rounds isn't exactly the same as killing 1 enemy per round, but it isn't that different either.

and DC 32 works on most mobs is not very helpful. most of us do not start toons at level 30 to get that DC and have to fight mobs to get there. at level 20 the DC is considerably lower and doesnt work well against mobs at or near our CR. it always seems you are one area CR behind it working at ~25% rate.

Wizard DC is lower at 20 than it is at 30 as well, how is that different? I have used DC in the mid-to-high 20's for spells and abilities in low epic area's and I must say my experience is far different from your ~25% success rate. That doesn't mean your experience is inaccurate, just that I haven't had your issues with it and this is on builds that don't have warlocks abilities to simply cast again.


Consider the fact that having a 75% success rate on an infinite casting ability essentially means guaranteed success every two rounds. What exactly are you expecting/looking for? The ability to have 40 DC Caster that never runs dry? Because I have to believe you can see the issue with that line of reasoning.

[aaron22]

well, with a few feats and a change in DC calculation we could get a DC that could top out at 38.

DC of 10 + (locklvl/3) + Cha mod + focus feats

example on drow
20 starting cha
30 lock levels
+7 stat ups
+7 epic feat stat ups
SF,GSF,ESF invocations
+4 eagles pot
Prod.

10 + 10 + 14+1 + 3 =38 DC... is that too high?

[metaquad4]

well, with a few feats and a change in DC calculation we could get a DC that could top out at 38.

DC of 10 + (locklvl/3) + Cha mod + focus feats

example on drow
20 starting cha
30 lock levels
+7 stat ups
+7 epic feat stat ups
SF,GSF,ESF invocations
+4 eagles pot
Prod.

10 + 10 + 14+1 + 3 =38 DC... is that too high?

You wouldn't want to these kinds of calculations, while gimping the build you are assuming. Also, you missed a few things in yours (Spellcasting Pro, Epic CL DCs).

Take Blackguard 3.
+13 Mod from 20 Starting CHA + 7 Stat Ups + 6 CHA + Item (+3 CHA)
+1 from Spellcasting Prodigy
+2 from Blackguard -Saves Aura
+10 from Base
+3 from CL 23/26/29

This is what we current have, a 29+ESL DC.

With your proposal which, if I am not mistaken, is to replace the ESL from Invocations with a calculation of Warlock CL/3 and add in Spell Focus/G. Spell Focus/Epic Spell Focus for Invocations.

We'd end up with:
+13 Mod from 20 Starting CHA + 7 Stat Ups + 5 CHA (Great CHA) + Eagle's Splendor (+4 CHA)
+1 from Spellcasting Prodigy
+2 from Blackguard -Saves Aura
+10 from Base
+3 from CL 23/26/29
+3 from Epic Spell Focus (Invocations)
+10 (30 Warlock CL)

=DC 42 on Invocations

Which is extremely high. DC 40+ are the upper tier of this server's DCs.

[tankteddy]

Honestly DCwarlocks are powerful regardless. The unlimited blasts even with a low DC only a matter of time 36B before they roll a 1. If you want more flare for warlocks add a some new PRC or sub classes like far realms, devil, demon, fey lock. And add a few spell like ablities to the class for added bonus. ( far realms can cast confusion once per day or such, fey gets a limited polymorph spell with minor woodland animal shapes, so on and so on)

Or add more sub Races. Tiefling with +2 int and +2 CHA
Or "Starelf" right now high DC is Limited mostly to Drow and Aasimar as top tier DC caster, yet I dont think a Devil worshipping Aasimar is very RP appropriate.

Add to an epic feat Invocation master. Adds +2 to DC of invocations. Or something to this effect.

However Warlocks are again Very powerful and yes I would like to so some other Races/spell selection beyond the norm

[wurdpass]

Hey guys! Im really appreciating all the discussion but I would like to say that if you dont read the OP, please dont respond..

If you just want to say "warlocks are already powerful with their defensive invocations" or "DC warlocks can just blast until you fail the save", its pretty clear to me you didn't read the original posting since I go into significant detail on ways to mitigate this and limit the power creep.

If instead you would like to discuss the underutilized invocations in the Warlocks list and how they could be used to open up differentiated and interesting playstyles for a somwhat cookie cutter class, im all ears

[aaron22]

You wouldn't want to these kinds of calculations, while gimping the build you are assuming. Also, you missed a few things in yours (Spellcasting Pro, Epic CL DCs).

i did acct for spell prod. it is the +1 after the cha score mod and the last spot on my list of bonuses. named "prod"
edit: think it would actually be +3 epic DC and the progress is 20,24,28? could be wrong here. not 100% on that. you might be though.

I did not acct for epic DC though and that would at max be 2 as I do not know of a way to increase CL of a warlock aside from practiced to bring back CL to 30.

so with that accounted for that would be a maximum DC on the most maximized build to be 40. which was declared as too high, so i would need to revise this to bring it back down again.

could just omit the focuses or stay with ESL.
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making the invo's more usable is certainly something we could/should work on. perhaps starting with a list of things that a controller lock would want to do and what a debuffer lock would, perhaps even have designations feats to empower certain subtypes of the ability to controller and debuff. spell focus invocation (control)/(debuff) etc.to increase DCs of certain sub categories inside invo list.

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please end this talk of a lock having unlimited uses. it doesnt. you wont sit there and spam 20 rounds looking for that 1 roll when you can just blast for 5 rounds. i controller lock right now is just a poopy blaster with poor invo choices.

if this is about PvP then you have no idea what you are talking about. locks win PvP with UMD. if this is too powerful, then this is the wrong thread. get on the same page people.

[wurdpass]

A couple more suggestions:

• Make Instill Vulnerability a greater invocation
• Create a save based Knockdown invocation like Swamp Lung (doesnt have to pierce immunities)
• Provide a single target invocation that behaves similarly to Dreadmasters Dominating Aura but lowers saves against Confusion invocations rather than Fear
• Convert Ill Omen into some sort of greater version of Curse of Dispair
• Increase movement speed debuff on Dread Seizure to above 50%

[DarnathS]

While we on the subject, would it be possible to put new *good* versions of *evil* invocs? Being a good/fey warlock i don't quite see myself ever using a summon undead invoc or turning into a hell hound...maybe put an equivalent that lets us summon a pixie/lesser fey creature and let us turn into a celestial dog/blinking dog or somesuch?

thank you!

[wurdpass]

I dont think that you can both have CL/3 and a generalist ability focus feat progression up to 3. I think if you wanted both, subdividing the specializations would likely be necessary. Even then it might be high, I dont disagree with that point.

But let's not forget we are talking generally about non damage dealing spells. Tentacles and Web could be handled differently by being excluded from feats or with a set CL

Additionally, using the blackguard -2 saves aura seems a little overstated as you will put yourself deeply in harms way by casting at such close range.

[Hammer_Song]

Additionally, using the blackguard -2 saves aura seems a little overstated as you will put yourself deeply in harms way by casting at such close range.

Not at all. You can cast fine right in the middle of mobs. Super high AC60+, concealed with 15DR, max concentration. It's a tactic employed server wide. Repelling blast used to be great for this (I haven't played a warlock in a while but I always played Chr-locks), hard to be immune to knock-down and the damage is magic damage so it's unlikely to be resisted. Also, it preyed on reflex saves which was typically low amongst mobs on this server. My last Chr-lock had a DC of 32, 34 with the blackguard debuff and he never had any problems disabling mobs then killing at his leisure. Of course, I picked blasts that could target any three of the save types - it's a bit metagamey but it'd make sense to do it anyway.

[metaquad4]

What would we could do, is offer unique or at-least different debuffs to warlock that do not nessecary benefit the warlock themselves (obviously they might, but that is ok. They also benefit the party.) but would benefit their party (more than the warlock itself, at-least) and work to hurt their enemies in interest ways. Things like:

-- An invocation that causes the target to take increased physical damage. +25% - +50% for 1 round/warlock level. Could have a fortitude save.

-- An invocation that lowers the AC of the target by -2 for each person who attacks them for 1 round/warlock level. Program it as when they take damage, they take -2 AC for 6 seconds (1 round). This invocation could have a will-save for 1/2 effect (-1 AC for 6 secounds).

-- An invocation that paralyzes the target for 2 rounds when they are attacked. This could have a fortitude save to take effect, and could last 2 round per level. Maybe after 3 triggers, it dissipates.

-- An invocation that coats an ally's weapon in a poison, or inflicts that poison on an enemy. Similar to our poison spell, except allow it to target allies to enchant their weapons.

-- A special wall that causes the enemy to gain stacking damage vulnerabilities when they hit it. Perhaps 5% vulnerability to damage when they strike it, up to a max of 14 stacks (70% when they hit 14 times). Give the wall low AC and high HP. Similar to our current wall spells, with a curse-y twist.

---- Alternative: The wall inflicts confusion when it is hit on a failed will save.

-- A curse that bestows haste upon a group of enemies, gives them the maximum attacks, and +5 AB, but causes them to take 30 damage (Fortitude save for half) when they hit enemies.

-- A spell that causes the target to go to sleep when they fail a will-save, and take damage upon waking (fortitude save for half). Nightmare themed.

-- Some current spells could be thematic invocations:
Faerie Fire, Lesser Planar Binding, Infestation of Maggots, Mind Fog.

-- Some of our current invocations could be replaced:
Hellspawn Grace with Polymorph Self (Put the hellhound in Polymorph for good measure).
Word of Changing with Shapechange.

Just a few ideas, sort of the thing that could be neat for warlocks. New invocations need to be put into 1 and 2 slots as well though, they can't all be stacked into 3 and 4 slots.

We already have Ability Focus (Invocations). We could introduce Epic Ability Focus (Invocations) which would give +4 instead of +2 and would ofc require an epic feat slot.

[wurdpass]

Metaquad, I very much like your ideas!

I agree that distributing some of them to the 1st and 2nd levels would be the right answer, however for I think that these debuffs would, in the current state, run into a similar problem to the current debuffs even if they were more powerful.

Assuming the addition of epic ability focus invocation - which I would support for sure - the ECLs would still be around 4 or 5, +4 is 9. When you figure that a Utterdark Blast lets you put a Fort or Will Stun save on your damage dealing blast for an ECL of 8, you are still better off using that blast on anything that doesn't have Evasion.

The issue I'm trying to highlight with the offensive invocations as they exist today is they fail to scale with a Warlock's Blast Shapes/Essences and become obsolete just when they might otherwise become fun to use, since early game just blasting is almost always going to be the ticket.

The other issue is the ones that exist today are mechanically not that useful either. I do like the ones you've added, and would love to see Lesser Planar Binding in L3 with a different/limited pool of summons.

I think that the ones you've listed do sound fun in party play, although I still think that adding Hex/Debuff warlock invocations that would be viable for the warlock would not increase power to the warlock.

Why do I think that? Because opportunity cost of 12 invocations - you almost always give up something strong, even in levels 1 and 2 whether it's Blindfight, Ignore the Pyre, Invis, See Invis or haste.\

Edit: Also love the confusion wall! How fun would that be!

[aaron22]

OK casting Resurrection here....
wait...
wait.....
wait.......

OK. so was out testing lock builds and still running into the same issues..

Then I helped a player who had never played a lock, build one and sent him out and helped him.

Conclusion: DC lock is just a crappy blaster. The new player started out trying to control and effect, but by the end of the night was just blasting because even gimped it is just reliable, faster and more effective in general.

Hunting 1 rolls is not a successful mission plan.

So while there are lots of ideas and most are pretty good. I would like to see if something can be done to increase the effectiveness of controller locks while not buffing the con and hips lock.

there is a wonderful synergy that can be created in a Cha based controller lock we just need to find it.

Something that comes to mind is to have inter-invo synergy to seperate blasters from controllers to debuffers to summoners. A synergy that follows what this game tries to keep in other classes. "The jack of all, master of none" build will be underwhelming.

So how could this be done? We could give certain invos requirements from previous invos. Make some invos logical choices to take depending on your desired concept.

Something like this....
*Eldrich spear opens up eldrich chain opens up eldrich cone opens up eldrich doom..
*Otherworldy whispers open The dead walk opens Web, Tentacles and(or) Plague opens Lure Shadow Demons
*entropic warding opens ignore the pyre opens aberrant claw opens dark premonition
*leaps and bounds opens flee the scene opens primal speed opens otherworldly leap
*all seeing eyes or see the unseen open walk unseen open retributive invis and witch sight
*beguiling influence opens charm that opens bewitching blast (or a mass charm) opens Dreadful word (or a Dominate Monster invo)

*darkness gives a bonus to lure shadow demons maybe
*Otherworldy whispers gives a bonus to Dark Premonition
*Witch sight gives a bonus to charm
etc

could keep going but you see the point. would have invos lead to other invos. with some early invos giving bonuses to later invos and even later invos giving bonus to early invos. with a limited number of invo choices this mean you can still be the blaster you want, but cant be a good blaster with any decent chance of a proc dropping. or have a decent DC and good damage at the same time.. without of course sacrificing something important in the process.

thanks for reading

[wurdpass]

Like Lazarus eh...

The Warlock class has 12 invocations and gets 7 or 8 preepic feats and then 5 to 8(?) in epics.

Any discussion of the class needs to be grounded by that.

A warlock can not have Doom, necessary for DCs, Binding to test Will saves, Premo, Foresight and Retributive

Why this is important: a high DC controller does not have "infinite casts", since his defenses are not equivalent to a con.locks he will die to Crits, even mob crits

It is not possible to have a SR-piercing essence plus essences that test each save at a high DC and still utilize the awesome AOE invocations.

Why this is important: the hypothetical super controller is not consistently stunning opps and trapping them in AOE dmg

A Warlock / BG wearing Med Armor and using ICE and Div Shield has one (human 2, but not a Cha+2 race) more preepic feats which youll spend on Spell Prodigy

Why this is important: adding feats that increase Warlock DCs will result in a trade off for this "optimal" controller build as it will sacrifice AC or DC to take those feats.