No Flaming Fist?

[Darksaber]

I was browsing through the guilds / factions and surface rp forums but didn't see a Flaming Fist guild for players. Is it my incompetence to find the thread or is there not one that exists?

[chad878262]

I think some players took advantage of the power of the fist in years gone by. Players can't be members of the Flaming Fist due to these past transgressions. All before my time so I don't know the specifics.

[Tsidkenu]

NPC only. PCs used to be able to join back in the day but giving such authority to players without the DM team to oversee its use caused a few issues. I personally would like to see the 'Mercenary' return to the Flaming Fist Mercenary Company, rather than the BG police-state gustapo force players bring their crims to atm. That is, allow PCs to join the FF and give FF PCs no lawful authority in BG and surrounds except where requested by the City Watch (NPC/DM request only).

BG is supposed to have it's own City Watch (which has many Fist informants in its ranks) whilst the Fist are Duke Eltan's independent body of mercs doing paid jobs according to Eltan's (and local/regional contractors) whims. The two are not the same, although the Watch can (and would/does/has) call upon the Fist for problems they are unable to deal with themselves.

[Arn]

I personally would like to see the 'Mercenary' return to the Flaming Fist Mercenary Company, rather than the BG police-state gustapo force players bring their crims to atm. That is, allow PCs to join the FF and give FF PCs no lawful authority in BG and surrounds except where requested by the City Watch (NPC/DM request only).

BG is supposed to have it's own City Watch (which has many Fist informants in its ranks) whilst the Fist are Duke Eltan's independent body of mercs doing paid jobs according to Eltan's (and local/regional contractors) whims. The two are not the same, although the Watch can (and would/does/has) call upon the Fist for problems they are unable to deal with themselves.

Oh hey, now there's an idea. I like it. But ICly, how would characters know that a PC Fist is not a lawful authority, versus an NPC Fist who IS a lawful authority?

Maybe just have different uniforms for the PC mercenary Fist? Like, the tabard could be some color other than white? Black? Red? Gray?

[whatsittoya]

I think the point involved the Fist (NPCs included) no longer being a lawful authority and instead giving that job to the people who are supposed to have that job, namely the city watch and a proper constabulary.

[Tsidkenu]

I think the point involved the Fist (NPCs included) no longer being a lawful authority and instead giving that job to the people who are supposed to have that job, namely the city watch and a proper constabulary.

Bingo. FF then reopens as a PC guild because its the DM controlled City Watch which enforces Baldurian law. FF can be called in if warranted and DMs remain in sole control of when/if that happens in the same way countries of our era might call in the military to assist in a matter. The military is always there, it doesnt enforce law unless lawfully requested to do so.

[izzul]

agree!

[Aspect of Sorrow]

I think the point involved the Fist (NPCs included) no longer being a lawful authority and instead giving that job to the people who are supposed to have that job, namely the city watch and a proper constabulary.

Bingo. FF then reopens as a PC guild because its the DM controlled City Watch which enforces Baldurian law. FF can be called in if warranted and DMs remain in sole control of when/if that happens in the same way countries of our era might call in the military to assist in a matter. The military is always there, it doesnt enforce law unless lawfully requested to do so.

That is how it started, just not how it ended.

[Wolfrayne]

After seeing some of the things i saw with people playing FF mercs... never again. Its just too toxic for the server. The idea was great. The results... ugh.

[Planehopper]

That was due to mismanagement (and complicity), not because of the idea. The FF was a great protagonist as we started the thieves guild, and was positively involved in many player and DM led RP campaigns. Characters like Aiden McBride and Borton, and Myhun, Crownsilver, and Rocshanks, provided a breath of life into what was and is an almost robotic presence that is easy to disregard. There is a way to play cooperative authority, and a way to play sketchy authoritarian, inside our rules and norms. These guys did that for a long time.

Preventing player FF because we worry about the lowest common denominator removes a lot of potential. Tarnishing the name and history of the players who WERE doing it right because in the end some weren't, is removing a big piece of our server's (and founding player's) positive legacy.

[Arn]

I'd feel more comfortable if there was no possibility at all of the PC Fist being given IC lawful authority. Like, a squad that's ICly formed specifically to handle only mercenary contracts. But TBH, now I am just imagining the many ways it could all go wrong. Like, imagine you're playing one of these Fists, and someone [insert any IC crime here]. The characters around you would expect you to do something, you'd be tempted to do something, and it would just be this awkward IC/OOC mess. Because if you don't ICly do something, all the characters around you would be ICly saying stuff about your character's inaction, even though there is an OOC rule preventing you from acting.

I think it obviously has the potential for great RP, but maybe the server is just too big now. If things were smaller, more like a tabletop PnP game, then maybe everyone could know each other on a friendly trusting basis and feel cooperative. But I feel like there are just too many people playing on the server, with cliques naturally forming. Not saying there's anything wrong with that, it's just how it is. And when cliques start to form, people can get a bit tribal and possessive. I'm honestly not sure it's about a lowest common denominator; maybe the server just got too big and successful for this idea to work reliably anymore.

[Infernal Dave]

I'd feel more comfortable if there was no possibility at all of the PC Fist being given IC lawful authority. Like, a squad that's ICly formed specifically to handle only mercenary contracts.

That was also a thing for a brief window of time a few years ago, after the original incarnation was disbanded. If I remember correctly they were basically the Flaming Fist X-Files, paranormal investigators or something like that without the police powers. Fizzled out, though I don't know why. I'd personally be fine with that or as generic mercenaries, but there MUST be an absolutely firm line drawn that the PCs will never, under any circumstances, act as law enforcement. I started shortly before they were disbanded and got to directly experience just how toxic and abusive those people were with their authority. PC law enforcement is a terrible idea that I have literally never once seen work on any server I have ever been on, and that's quite a few.

[whatsittoya]

If the Fist ceases to be a law-enforcement agency, then there wouldn't be any concern about PCs enforcing the law. I thought that was clear.

[Steve]

https://www.realmshelps.net/faerun/orga ... fist.shtml

One of the most powerful such companies currently active (1368), the Flaming Fist is usually based in Baldur's Gate, where its commander Eltan, is a Duke (See Baldur's Gate). The Fists have a good record of achievements, particularly when operating against other mercenary companies, such as the nonhuman bands.

The Flaming Fist is the most powerful, most magical, and most expensive fighting forces in the Realms, and is the result of decades of work and effort, both in training and in accumulating magical items for use on the battlefield. The Fist normally hires out at a base rate of 10,000 g.p. Per Day plus its share of the plunder, but will pay its own transportation costs and agree not to begin charging their rates until directly entering the employer's service.

...

Again, it must be stressed that this mercenary company is far more powerful than most; everyone else save a Horde raised by combining several mercenary companies is going to be less powerful than this, and carry a lot less magical loot; all of the Fist's senior officers listed above are the equivalent of most of the other mercenary company leaders.

Think very carefully about this, if you care anything about Forgotten Realms lore.

In short, pretty much the Flaming Fist + Eltan and his Officers would be "taking care" of about 90% of all Server Wide Campaigns that have been generated so far...leaving our pathetic "adventurers" back at the tavern, weeping into our ale mugs.

The whole thing is pretty skewed, actually. And if it was really taken into consideration what the Flaming Fist actually are, it would devalue most of what our PCs are doing. LOL.

The only way out of this, or to say, how to put it all together in some realistic fashion, is to have a true declaration that for all intents and purposes, the Level and Power of Lore Based NPCs is DOUBLED, or, that our Characters are essentially halved.

Not to forget to mention...who wouldn't want to hire the Power of the Flaming Fist for 10k gp per day...considering some of the personal treasure chests certain PCs are walking around with!

[chad878262]

of course then the few player driven mercenary companies might lose whatever membership they have in favor of the Fist which would be a bit sad. At a minimum the Bladestone Foundation and Ebon Blade have been around for a good while, would be a shame to see them lose membership and potentially RP, even if the Fist is more of a canon Merc company for the region.