No Flaming Fist?

[Darksaber]

I can see how overpowered FF mercs could be an issue after all this input. The way I see it is, they are supposed to be a mercenary company, but ICly, they are not going to get hired by PCs because theres no incentive for it. Just think about it, if you were a PC (rich), why would you hire Mercenaries - I can't find an IC reason. Transport goods from BG to Nashkel? You could just walk. Need ogres in an area cleared away? A high level PC could just do it themselves. Unless it's a DM event, there's really no need for PC's to hire PC's.

Now, with that said. What is the purpose of being FF then? Theres absolutely NOTHING else to do except enforce the law. So I can see where this is a problem. Lack of activity, and holding power. Leads to? Law enforcement. So I can understand where it can get out of hand. Me personally, I just like parading around in the uniform. Not really interested in enforcing anything TBH. If regulated enough and you get a good bunch of PCs that really have no interested in law enforcement and just want to RP as a FF, then I believe it could work. But it has to be regulated and monitored by DMs so it won't blow up.

[aaron22]

I wish this was a good idea, but every imagination that i consider makes me think of this.

I do not think this is an inevitable outcome or anything. It would certainly take the right leader and right players behind the mask.

I'm not all about the "assuming the worst in ppl" scenario. I want to think the players would be able to do this with an amount of respect and clever RP that strange and challenging situations could be overcome.

[Darkwind]

I'm with @aaron22. (but with a much more cynical POV) Not to touch this third rail especially as it relates to RL but you needn't move much farther than the nightly news to see that strapping a badge on a LOT of people is an exceptionally bad idea. I'm not at all surprised that the Stanford Prison Experiment, writ small, occurred on this server.

There is a subset of people who are drawn to abuse of power like moths to a flame. For that reason alone it would be insanity to reinstate this in any way. Leave the sociopaths pretending to be 'good guys' to real life please.

[Young Werther]

I wish this was a good idea, but every imagination that i consider makes me think of this.

Here you go. https://www.livescience.com/62832-stanf ... lawed.html

[aaron22]

@ youngwerther
I am not saying that happened in either case. I was just giving an example of what my imaginative devolution reminded me of.

[Arn]

If the Fist ceases to be a law-enforcement agency, then there wouldn't be any concern about PCs enforcing the law. I thought that was clear.

I don't think it's that clear-cut, actually. I still think there could be awkward IC/OOC mix-ups. The pressure to act as law enforcement might be ICly present, and it might be pretty strong.

In a law-breaking situation, I can easily imagine a bunch of other characters ICly asking a Fist PC why he isn't doing anything to protect people, etc. Not saying that is an insurmountable issue, but I think the waters could get muddied for sure.

So basically, I think we'd have to 1) be very careful OOCly about Fist PCs not slipping into law-enforcement activities and 2) be ready for IC fallout from people seeing Fist PCs do nothing when confronted with criminal activity.

[aaron22]

to that point, ICly the fist PC's could just be grey shirts that are restricted by faction rules from intervening in such encounters and be advised to maintain order and observe as impartial witness to criminal behavior. That self preservation would allow action, but are remanded to being a witness and order in any other such occurrences.

[whatsittoya]

If the Fist ceases to be a law-enforcement agency, then there wouldn't be any concern about PCs enforcing the law. I thought that was clear.

I don't think it's that clear-cut, actually. I still think there could be awkward IC/OOC mix-ups. The pressure to act as law enforcement might be ICly present, and it might be pretty strong.

In a law-breaking situation, I can easily imagine a bunch of other characters ICly asking a Fist PC why he isn't doing anything to protect people, etc. Not saying that is an insurmountable issue, but I think the waters could get muddied for sure.

So basically, I think we'd have to 1) be very careful OOCly about Fist PCs not slipping into law-enforcement activities and 2) be ready for IC fallout from people seeing Fist PCs do nothing when confronted with criminal activity.

I don't understand how this objection is applicable in the case of the group's legal authority being stripped (and made public knowledge, because obviously it would be). In such a hypothetical scenario, it would take all of ten seconds to inform anyone that the Fist doesn't do that anymore. Not the PC Fists, not the NPC Fists. The job's been given to an actual real constabulary instead of professional (for pay) soldiers, thus ending the long dark period of martial law.

Any Fist PC trying to enforce the law would be impersonating an actual law enforcement officer, which would obviously be against the law, and so they'd be charged (and probably fired).

[Arn]

to that point, ICly the fist PC's could just be grey shirts that are restricted by faction rules from intervening in such encounters and be advised to maintain order and observe as impartial witness to criminal behavior. That self preservation would allow action, but are remanded to being a witness and order in any other such occurrences.

That could work. Maybe the IC reason for the gray shirts not being allowed to enforce the law is simply because they're not trained to do that, and the FF wants them to specifically handle mercenary work and bring in the cash. So if the gray shirts meddle in law-enforcement the FF gets ticked off at them. Like, "We're not paying you to make problems for us, we're paying you to complete contracts."

That just leaves one more wrinkle: the idea of letting the gray shirts enforce the law when DMs are overseeing it. I actually think this would backfire tremendously and get messy for everyone involved, players and DMs alike. But I get the feeling that DMs don't want to be getting dragged into such scenarios anyways, so I doubt they'd be having FF NPCs order the gray shirt PCs to chase down a player-controlled lawbreaker. (Just basing that on DM comments I have read in the past.)

@whatsittoya: I am just assuming we want to have the Fist NPCs retain some law-enforcement authority. But your scenario, if it comes to pass, would work quite elegantly.

[whatsittoya]

To be fair, plenty of PCs hunt down lawbreaking PCs in order to bring them before the authorities. Citizen's arrest style.

Anyways, revoking all legal authority from the entity would be the most reasonable method of opening up its membership to PCs again, which is why that method was suggested so early in this thread (and reiterated).

Real talk, hiring a mercenary company to enforce the laws is something a leader would do because they don't have enough of their own people to keep order. It's a short-term solution to a long-term problem. It'd have been done with the ultimate end goal of expanding the city watch and establishing a proper constabulary, rather than nigh-permanently turning professional (for pay) soldiers into glorified police.

It would definitely cost more to pay a mercenary group (after all this is no mere retainer) to do guard work than it would cost to pay an actual real trained-for-law-enforcement guard force.

[Arn]

To be fair, plenty of PCs hunt down lawbreaking PCs in order to bring them before the authorities. Citizen's arrest style.

Of course, but they do it without the weight of DM-sanctioned authority. They're not tasked by a DM-created guild to PvP other characters.

Whether people take your suggestion or the "gray shirt" suggestion doesn't really matter, so long as the PC Fist guild is not enforcing laws.

[Darksaber]

To be fair, plenty of PCs hunt down lawbreaking PCs in order to bring them before the authorities. Citizen's arrest style.

To be honest, I have seen this ALOT. Pale masters and necromancers, the Coven of Darkness, you name it. When any lawbreaking PCs show their face at the campfire at the Friendly Arm, two minutes later the entire server (or half of it) is on their tail.

Now the question is: "Should FF mercenaries do this?" Short answer: Yes but only when there is a REAL threat to the city or citizens, and not automatically every time they log on, as that is pushing it too far. But getting players to understand this is a whole other ballpark.

[Steve]

When any lawbreaking PCs show their face at the campfire ....

Starting problem right there!!!

[Arn]

When any lawbreaking PCs show their face at the campfire at the Friendly Arm, two minutes later the entire server (or half of it) is on their tail.

Now the question is: "Should FF mercenaries do this?" Short answer: Yes but only when there is a REAL threat to the city or citizens, and not automatically every time they log on, as that is pushing it too far. But getting players to understand this is a whole other ballpark.

Oh, this brings up another likely scenario: The PC Fists would say, "Well, anyone else can hunt down law-breakers, so why not us? We're just doing it as normal players." But it just wouldn't be received that way by other players. If that door is opened, I imagine the FF PCs would practically end up being law-enforcement.

...The more I think of it, the less I think this should be attempted.

[Darkwind]

When any lawbreaking PCs show their face at the campfire ....

Starting problem right there!!!

Just happened to me a few days ago by a member of the now disbanded "old school Flaming Fist" (The abusive ones of yesteryear). I was literally just walking by and was run down aggressively w/ the 'get out of here or die' speech.

Hence why I have such a bad taste in my mouth about this as there are some 'after effects' still lingering.

Sadly for the person in question, I'm now in possession of a build after about 20 RCRs in the past 2 weeks that will melt his face in approximately 20 seconds. I know this because I asked around about him a bit to see what I was up against.

So I'll be killing him on sight next time he isn't with his 'campfire posse' though like many of the Campfire Crew, he don't get out much these days...