Faithless/False/The Wall

[electric mayhem]

Ed's "Shadow of the Avatar" trilogy offers some interesting insights into this very time, particularly Ao's state of mind.

[thids]

Don't think anyone is denying the general belief in all gods, nor the fact that people turn to different gods in their time of need, depending on that need. I am simply stating that in FR a character needs a divine patron, otherwise they are considered Faithless. That is documented in various sourcebooks, regardless of the timeline, and is not denied by any source nor is it presented as "from 1358. people need a divine patron".

[Arn]

Don't think anyone is denying the general belief in all gods, nor the fact that people turn to different gods in their time of need, depending on that need. I am simply stating that in FR a character needs a divine patron, otherwise they are considered Faithless. That is documented in various sourcebooks, regardless of the timeline, and is not denied by any source nor is it presented as "from 1358. people need a divine patron".

Yeah I agree; I don't see anything in the source books to suggest otherwise. To avoid the Wall at any point in the timeline, both before and after the ToT, one needs a patron deity. I only brought up those points in the spoiler because I think it's helpful to know what being Faithless actually means; years ago, I actually DID think it meant not believing in the gods, and was intrigued to learn that pretty much everyone in the FR has a general belief in all the gods.

Basically, my own understanding is a follows:

1. The Wall exists both before and after the ToT. If you are Faithless and have no patron, you're heading to the Wall. (Although see my own little pet theory about what it actually means to have a patron or be Faithless here. Maybe I am wrong, but I cite the FRCS and Ed Greenwood! Just putting it on the table. )

2. Before the ToT, people generally did not know about the Wall. The Myrkulites talked about it, but people generally did not believe them. An individual character on our server might believe in the Wall, but that should be considered a fringe conspiracy theory. (While we might think this is unfair to the Faithless because they didn't have fair warning about the Wall before the ToT, I still think it's actually pretty hard to land in the Wall. Again, see my little pet theory above.)

3. After the ToT, when the gods began to depend on mortals for their power, the gods began to trumpet about the Wall. This is when mortals began to know about the Wall, because the gods were actively trying to use it as an incentive for mortals to worship them. Nothing about the Wall actually changed, the gods just started talking about it more.

[thids]

Agreed. And while the number of Faithless definitely decreased after ToT, it's not like the large majority of people in the world did not have a patron before ToT. It's simply the nature of religion

[Ravial]

Could you point me to the place where its written that wall of the faithless was generally an unknown thing pre-tot? I'd very much like to read that.

Also, FR lore is not very well known for its consistency. You have it said that ToT happened, because gods didn't care about their worshippers. But it's actually not really true. Once you get to Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, as well as Demihuman Deities you can read very clearly that most, if not majority, of gods were in fact very active in their duties and wants in regards to mortals. The main reason why things were changed, was because Ao held all gods responsible for their inaction/prevention from Bane getting Tablets of Time and destroying one or few of them (I'm not talking about any novel lore). It's also the reason why Tyr lost his eyes - questioning Ao's justice.

I also have to quite agree with some others that it makes no sense for Wall of the Faithless to be unknown/uncommon knowledge. You'd think that something pretty damn important for everyone to know.

And! In 1st edition, pre-tot, deities always needed the worshippers as their backbone for power! The entire "they didn't ever need worshippers" is just one huge retcon.

[Arn]

Could you point me to the place where its written that wall of the faithless was generally an unknown thing pre-tot? I'd very much like to read that.

Asking for the original source is very sensible. I can't point you to something that definitively says "the Wall wasn't well-known before the ToT", though I will keep looking for it. I have just been following what the DM rulings have been.

I also have to quite agree with some others that it makes no sense for Wall of the Faithless to be unknown/uncommon knowledge. You'd think that something pretty damn important for everyone to know.

I think this also makes sense.
All I can say about that is I think someone actually has to work pretty hard to get into the Wall. I used to think anyone in the Old Order, who don't worship any deity, is just automatically doomed to the Wall.
But Ed Greenwood has said the Wall is "for those who repudiate some or all of the gods, or seek to defy “the system” (usually because they have become insane) by denying that the gods and faith have any usefulness or validity at all - - or who assert that EVERYTHING mortals know about the gods is utterly wrong because the gods deceive mortals habitually, all the time, about all matters. It is more of a threat to living mortals than a popular, heavily-populated destination..." (So Saith Ed, 8 Sept 2012.) The way I RP my character's sect of the Old Order, they don't repudiate the gods or deny the gods have any usefulness or validity at all. Nor does my character's sect of the Old Order think the gods deceive mortals all the time about everything. I just RP that the Old Order prefers to be self-sufficient. This MIGHT be close enough to "repudiating the gods" that the Old Order should be considered Faithless by Ed Greenwood's definition, but that is probably a DM decision.
Either way, FRCS page 290 says, "Even if a player has not chosen a patron deity for his character before the character meets her death, the player can choose one at the time of the character's death... Even if the character has never actively shown interest in any particular god, the way the character has been played usually will suggest a god."
So maybe it's not IMPERATIVE that people know about the Wall. It looks like they get a shot at avoiding the Wall no matter what.

Still, I agree the Wall would seem to be at least pertinent information to the people of Faerun. But I'm fine with whatever the DMs decide. I probably have one of the few characters that is directly impacted by the issue of the Wall, but I can RP with any given ruling. TBH, if he knew about the Wall, my character might end up choosing to go there anyways, rather than betraying the Old Order's principles by going with a deity after death.

[Steve]

Most folk have a handful of powers that they regularly venerate, only appeasing an unpleasant
power when they are entering or engaged in a situation where that deity holds sway. Most people in the
Realms also eventually settle on a sort of patron deity who they are most comfortable venerating and
who they hold in the greatest reverence. A person’s patron deity is the power that eventually escorts
that person’s spirit from the Fugue Plain, the place where spirits go right after people die, to its afterlife
as a petitioner in the Outer Planes in the realm (or at least the plane) of its patron deity.

(Those who firmly deny any faith or have only given lip service most of their lives and
never truly believed are known as the Faithless after death. They are
formed into a living wall around the City of Strife—Kelemvor, the new lord
of the dead, may soon rename it—in the realm of the dead in Oinos in the
Gray Waste and left there until they dissolve. The unearthly greenish mold
that holds the wall together eventually destroys them. The False, those who
intentionally betrayed a faith they believed in and to which they made a
personal commitment, are relegated to eternal punishment in the City of
Strife after their case is ruled upon by Kelemvor in the Crystal Spire
(Kelemvor’s abode in the City of Strife).

Some folk of Faerûn choose to devote their lives to a particular god.
Most often these people are priests; others belong to other classes, such as
paladins or mages. These folk are expected to he loyal to their faith because
of the commitment they have personally sworn to a power, although they
may respect the faiths of other deities who their deity serves or is allied to.

Oldest source book I could find was from 1996 (the above).

Looking around some more, there is really nothing addressing whether mortals know about the Wall of the Faithless (though devils and demons would!).

As far as I know, since I've been on BGTSCC, time spent in the Fugue IS NOT REMEMBERED by a Character. Maybe a faint dream/memory aspect, but nothing concrete. So whether BG or general FR...who could even remember it in order to supply more than simple speculation to others?!?

[Snarfy]

Admittedly, I have never sat down and read any sourcebook materials, I have only played table-top(a LONG time ago) and pretty much every single D&D video game ever made. I don't know about the rest of you, but I cant remember ever learning anything about the Wall of The Faithless until I played NWN2, perhaps it's inclusion into the source material was a result of this game?

For what it's worth, the Wall was never mentioned in any of the original BG games(at least I don't think it was), so I think it stands to reason that the Wall isn't something that would be common knowledge within the servers time-line.

[Arn]

[...] but I cant remember ever learning anything about the Wall of The Faithless until I played NWN2, perhaps it's inclusion into the source material was a result of this game?

For what it's worth, the Wall was never mentioned in any of the original BG games(at least I don't think it was), so I think it stands to reason that the Wall isn't something that would be common knowledge within the servers time-line.

Nah, the Wall definitely pre-dates NWN2. The post immediately preceding yours cites a 1996 sourcebook that discusses the Wall. I think there is a lot of lore that is not mentioned in the BG games.

[whatsittoya]

Uh yeah I think it's fair to say that the games have a more focused narrative and as such they exclude a lot more than they include and thus shouldn't be regarded as a primary source.