Animate Dead Nerf

[Deathgrowl]

And that's only a small list of what boons you get from the Planar allies. In short you get WAY more options with planar ally, more versatility, more boons, longer duration, and to top if off CAN SUMMON 2 (1 is permanent) + an army spell + animal companion + Hellfire Warlock summon (gimp build) for a total of 7 summons behind you. Necromancers get 4 tops with much less everything not to mention are all effected by heal spells and mass heals spells which means they don't last ANYTHING in a real situation.

If you are allowed to use PRCs for your argumentation, that means we are as well.

Palemaster's Summon Greater Undead lasts 15 minutes/pm level. That's two and a half hours. This is a vampire. This one has two variants, one at level 9 and one at level 10. The second one, at least, has a dominate person SLA as well as 20 levels of swashbuckler, which means it has wounding and weakening critical.

The Palemaster Summon Undead has several variants, starting at palemaster 7. The level 10 one is a mummy cleric with a lot of heal and harm spells.

As I've said earlier, these are the best long-term summons you can have besides druid, spirit shaman and cleric with animal domain companions.

And you can have an army spell up at the same time, so that's already 5 summons. And then you can Control Undead for another, if you are in that kind of zone.

Here. Look at these stats (buffed up, obviously):





Now, what is the issue with necromancer summons, again?

[mrm3ntalist]

Now, what is the issue with necromancer summons, again?

The issue is that they dont work in the epics.

[Deathgrowl]

Now, what is the issue with necromancer summons, again?

The issue is that they dont work in the epics.

Better than any other summons. Why should necromancer summons work in the epics when Summon IX and Greater Planar Binding doesn't?

[mrm3ntalist]

You go into good-vs-evil debates which does not interest me and after so many years, bores me as well. All summons should work in the epics. All play styles should be viable in the epics and not just those that we/the-devs/the-admins like. One might not like wizards, that is fine. But nerfing or saying that certain playstyles should not be viable in the epics because of an imaginary power creep or personal dislike is not logical.

[Rain]

And that's only a small list of what boons you get from the Planar allies. In short you get WAY more options with planar ally, more versatility, more boons, longer duration, and to top if off CAN SUMMON 2 (1 is permanent) + an army spell + animal companion + Hellfire Warlock summon (gimp build) for a total of 7 summons behind you. Necromancers get 4 tops with much less everything not to mention are all effected by heal spells and mass heals spells which means they don't last ANYTHING in a real situation.

If you are allowed to use PRCs for your argumentation, that means we are as well.

Palemaster's Summon Greater Undead lasts 15 minutes/pm level. That's two and a half hours. This is a vampire. This one has two variants, one at level 9 and one at level 10. The second one, at least, has a dominate person SLA as well as 20 levels of swashbuckler, which means it has wounding and weakening critical.

The Palemaster Summon Undead has several variants, starting at palemaster 7. The level 10 one is a mummy cleric with a lot of heal and harm spells.

As I've said earlier, these are the best long-term summons you can have besides druid, spirit shaman and cleric with animal domain companions.

And you can have an army spell up at the same time, so that's already 5 summons. And then you can Control Undead for another, if you are in that kind of zone.

Here. Look at these stats (buffed up, obviously):





Now, what is the issue with necromancer summons, again?

HA! Don't even get me started on that pale-master summon they get that comes with NO WEAPON and 20 levels of a class that revolves around USING A WEAPON with a LOW CRIT RANGE ultimately making that summon. . . (ready for this?) USELESS!

Another issue with your statement is yes you may get Variations from palemaster you will don't get MORE options, your option from palemaster only upgrades with you, you don't even get the options to choose the older variations you had access to previously before you levels up to 8, 9 and 10.

Yup I agree with you there the mummy lord is pretty damn good. Ok great necromancers actually get a good summon that requires you to be a wizard (RIP clerics? ) that can still only they can have ->1<- of on the field at a single time. Of which is a KOS summon, Of which can be turned, Of which can die from one mass heal from a herophant, oh which still last LESS TIME then a conjurationionist summon (which is permanent) and most importantly still gives you LESS OPTIONS AND BOONS THEN THE COUNTER CONJURATION CHOICES.

Side note: That still is only 5 summons, controlling an undead is the same thing as dominating a monster and does not follow the caster through transitions. And if you use animate dead. . . Why even bother now that they are basically skeletons from the BG graveyard?

Another thing to note is that dominate spells are DC based, they can fail while summoning will always work, also you can't transition with those monsters (which is rather unfortunate but experience proved we can't have nice things), making these domination spells less of a problem.

[Deathgrowl]

I thought all of this was about the power of necromancer summons, not the variation. Isn't that the complaint about animate dead being nerfed?

And why is it so important to have loads of summons around? I'd rather have one good one than a bunch of crap ones. And you can't have a bunch of good ones, because that would definitely be unbalanced.

EDIT: The level 10 vampire also has some on-hit effect. I think it's a level drain. DC 20.

Your concern also seems to be mainly of PvP. If that is the case, I can't offer anything more.

[Rain]

Now, what is the issue with necromancer summons, again?

Hey let's not even get into the fact Conjurationist get ->DUSTY TOMES<- too! Even more options! Some even better then the Mummy Lord! HA! Let's not even get into that. Throw that out the window.

[Steve]

All summons should work in the epics.

Doesn't Epic Gate work in Epics? Why not rename to Epic Summons and add an Undead choice?

[Rain]

I thought all of this was about the power of necromancer summons, not the variation. Isn't that the complaint about animate dead being nerfed?

And why is it so important to have loads of summons around? I'd rather have one good one than a bunch of crap ones. And you can't have a bunch of good ones, because that would definitely be unbalanced.

EDIT: The level 10 vampire also has some on-hit effect. I think it's a level drain. DC 20.

Your concern also seems to be mainly of PvP. If that is the case, I can't offer anything more.

So your telling me 2 Planetars, a lvl 24 Monster Humanoid Hag Spawn, A Bazu summon from hellfire warlock (Which if your lucky can be the demon chicken which is an instant win against any boss) and 3 HD 20 Metal men or Spider summons that give HASTE are crap summons? If so then I think we are talking about two different games here. Maybe you have nwn1 booted up?

This has nothing to do with PVP everyone knows if you wanted to do anything in PVP you don't use summons in general just make a Favored Soul or a DC build and throw something at the other person but this topic is not about PVP and im going to get into that.

[Deathgrowl]

If it wasn't about PvP, why are you concerned about Hierophant heals?

I asked Valefort to whip up some of the Greater Planar Binding dusty tomes stats and he says none of them compare to the vampire or the mummy from the palemaster.

Yes, I am saying those are somewhat crap summons, because you can't fully buff all of them. At least not while retaining some other spells. Do any of those come even remotely close to the stats of the two I showed above, do you think?

[Rain]

If it wasn't about PvP, why are you concerned about Hierophant heals?

I asked Valefort to whip up some of the Greater Planar Binding dusty tomes stats and he says none of them compare to the vampire or the mummy from the palemaster.

Yes, I am saying those are somewhat crap summons, because you can't fully buff all of them. At least not while retaining some other spells. Do any of those come even remotely close to the stats of the two I showed above, do you think?

I was giving an example to how easily undead by itself can be killed with a single counter spell. Don't worry I won't even get into the fact that almost every mob-type in the epics has a mass heal of some sort (Yuan-ti clerics, Ice King, Yant-ti queen, troll mages of cloud-peaks mountain caves.) You won't see a Solar/Angel getting killed by something like that which can mass heal that would deal damage to the entire group of undead for 150 damage. Mind you there is no counter spell to Mass Heal. Where is mass harm?

Always found it strange 9th level spell mass heal existed but we don't have an option for 9th level spell mass harm.

Why even bring up trying to retain other spells? This topic is about summoners and animate undead if you are a dedicated summoner you would buff up all your summons to the max which YES ive tested you have enough slots to buff them all up and yourself with all the relevant immunities, spell resistance, AB, AC, and damage modifiers.

[Rain]

I asked Valefort to whip up some of the Greater Planar Binding dusty tomes stats and he says none of them compare to the vampire or the mummy from the palemaster.

The fact that Dusty Tomes have a chance to give you a wish-master is by itself is 100% better then anything a necromancer can do. A summon that grants wishes we are speaking about, if this is the case I wouldn't even care if the model monster itself had 1AB and 2 AC with the commoner base class. The simple fact that you can get a summon like that would outweigh any infernal, abyssal or undead necromancy summon 10 fold.

And still the simple fact I mentioned dusty tombs has more to do with the options a conjurationist has over a necromancer. When in lore necromancers can call upon all sorts of abominations of blood, bone, evil and shadow with the flick of a wrist. And im talking ARMIES here! 20,30,40 undead and shadow demons and flesh abominations swarming at the command on the necromancer. Yet lvl 30 necromancers in our server can summon 4 undead that can barely even stand on their two feet without being knocked over by some stray wind-flow. Now mind you I know that would be ridiculously taxing to allow necromancers to summon 40 undead in-game. But that is what the 4 undead summoned from animate dead are suppose to represent the large horde that would be been summoned around the necromancer given you would need a bit of a imagination sure.

[Deathgrowl]

The fact that Dusty Tomes have a chance to give you a wish-master is by itself is 100% better then anything a necromancer can do. A summon that grants wishes we are speaking about, if this is the case I wouldn't even care if the model monster itself had 1AB and 2 AC with the commoner base class. The simple fact that you can get a summon like that would outweigh any infernal, abyssal or undead necromancy summon 10 fold.

You think a summoned djinn is actually able to grant you wishes?

And still the simple fact I mentioned dusty tombs has more to do with the options a conjurationist has over a necromancer. When in lore necromancers can call upon all sorts of abominations of blood, bone, evil and shadow with the flick of a wrist. And im talking ARMIES here! 20,30,40 undead and shadow demons and flesh abominations swarming at the command on the necromancer. Yet lvl 30 necromancers in our server can summon 4 undead that can barely even stand on their two feet without being knocked over by some stray wind-flow. Now mind you I know that would be ridiculously taxing to allow necromancers to summon 40 undead in-game. But that is what the 4 undead summoned from animate dead are suppose to represent the large horde that would be been summoned around the necromancer given you would need a bit of a imagination sure.

In PnP, a level 30 necromancer can (given he has enough corpses) make 60 level 1 skeletons with animate dead. He can control 120 level 1 skeletons. In PnP, a level 30 can create 6 level 10 skeletons or zombies with animate dead, provided he has the right kind of corpses (human corpses won't be level 10s). He'd be able to summon 4 level 15 skeletons.

Animate dead can animate HD skeletons/zombies twice caster level of necromancer. The necromancer can control undead HD four times his caster level.

On BGTSCC it's 4 level 12 skeletons. So maybe we should bump them up to level 15, but the "levels" we talk of here, are HD, which in nwn2 tems means Undead NPC class levels. Would you rather have level 15 undead class summons or level 12 fighter class summons?

Is this all about quantity for you, then? In that case, this nerf doesn't change anything.

[Rain]

The fact that Dusty Tomes have a chance to give you a wish-master is by itself is 100% better then anything a necromancer can do. A summon that grants wishes we are speaking about, if this is the case I wouldn't even care if the model monster itself had 1AB and 2 AC with the commoner base class. The simple fact that you can get a summon like that would outweigh any infernal, abyssal or undead necromancy summon 10 fold.

You think a summoned djinn is actually able to grant you wishes?

And still the simple fact I mentioned dusty tombs has more to do with the options a conjurationist has over a necromancer. When in lore necromancers can call upon all sorts of abominations of blood, bone, evil and shadow with the flick of a wrist. And im talking ARMIES here! 20,30,40 undead and shadow demons and flesh abominations swarming at the command on the necromancer. Yet lvl 30 necromancers in our server can summon 4 undead that can barely even stand on their two feet without being knocked over by some stray wind-flow. Now mind you I know that would be ridiculously taxing to allow necromancers to summon 40 undead in-game. But that is what the 4 undead summoned from animate dead are suppose to represent the large horde that would be been summoned around the necromancer given you would need a bit of a imagination sure.

In PnP, a level 30 necromancer can (given he has enough corpses) make 60 level 1 skeletons with animate dead. He can control 120 level 1 skeletons. In PnP, a level 30 can create 6 level 10 skeletons or zombies with animate dead, provided he has the right kind of corpses (human corpses won't be level 10s). He'd be able to summon 4 level 15 skeletons.

Animate dead can animate HD skeletons/zombies twice caster level of necromancer. The necromancer can control undead HD four times his caster level.

On BGTSCC it's 4 level 12 skeletons. So maybe we should bump them up to level 15, but the "levels" we talk of here, are HD, which in nwn2 tems means Undead NPC class levels. Would you rather have level 15 undead class summons or level 12 fighter class summons?

Is this all about quantity for you, then? In that case, this nerf doesn't change anything.

Are you even reading what i'm writing at this point?

If you did you would know the whole reason I brought up the fact of quantity was to add to my point that why do Conjurationist get quantity when Necromancers don't especially when necromancers already have the weaker summons and less vararity of summons compared to the conjurationist counter-parts. I still fail to see why anyone who wanted to be a dedicated summoner would not simply just take thamaturge and get the summons that are on par if not better then the summons you get from create greater undead and animate dead not to mention the summons that are on par if not better you get >2< of. Only crappy part is if your an evil thamaturge your already gimping yourself because all the chaotic and evil summons and FAR FAR inferior to the good and lawful summons in terms of usefulness and stats. You would think since this is the case necromancers summoners would be ying-yang to off-set that unbalance. But nope they get their spells nerfed, get less summons, get weaker summons and are still flat out beaten by anything lawful or angelic. I'm surprised with all of this people even played necromancers to begin with before this thread was even made.

Why not just add a PRC like thamaturge and make it for necromancers then? Because as it stands now the only viable alternative argument and point you've made that I can agree with is pale-master summons. Which is a PRC that is unobtainable by clerics who also can be dedicated necromancers that can serve gods of the dead. But they don't get at-least that luxury?

WHY?

Im unsure why the devs think that if there were some power creep here, it was due to necromancy spells. When angelic and lawful summons are better in every way possible and inheritently beat necromancy summons flat out.

Hound Archon: Gets smite evil

(Where is a summon for evil with smite good?)

Planetar: Gets regen, heal, and a great sword.

(Where is a summon for evil with JUST regen in the planear ally summon list? Don't even know of a summon in there with harm either or even a weapon that's not a longsword or worse.)

Even comparing the Good Aligned Duel Weilding Sword Archon summon to the Evil Aligned Duel Wielding Bueroza summon. The sword archon gets an extra 1d4 holy and 1d4 fire compared to the Bueroza!





Again. . .

WHY?

//Why does he not just have 1d4 negative energy, 1d4 electricity? You guys gave his swords the lightning VFX effect but there is 0 lightning damage on them?!?!?!?!?!?

[Wolfrayne]

Creating and animating dead involves using corpses. you are animating a body. You are not calling in to being a creature from another plane of existence that has its own thoughts, feelings, motivations. history. Undead dont study new spells and abilities or train for martial combat. They are simply animated corpses. They should in no way EVER be more powerful or even equal in terms of power to the creatures you can bring from other planes. You are making a deal with a creature that is very much able and willing to tell you to pike off and go do its own thing.

Yes im aware of liches, dracoliches and other sentient Undead are an exception here but we are talking MINDLESS undead that are created as meatshields basicly. The Palemaster has a slew of other benefits and abilities that make the class incredibly powerful for any evil/neutral PC. the school of necromancy itself has a plethora of usefull spells for dealing with threats and is in no way a weak school. You dont NEED an undead army to make a statement or be effective in combat. The game itself is designed around people working in groups anyway!

The whole "animating dead makes you evil so its unfair" is a stupid argument because the same could be said for summoning devils, demons and certain other planar creatures. There are other options available. Not all summons are created equal. This is not some MMORPG where everything has to be balanced for "fairness sake" this is an RPG world where actions have consequences. Some creatures are just stronger than others, thats all there is to it. Someone summons an angel against your demon or devil Banish the damn thing!