Animate Dead Nerf

[Rain]

Creating and animating dead involves using corpses. you are animating a body. You are not calling in to being a creature from another plane of existence that has its own thoughts, feelings, motivations. history. Undead dont study new spells and abilities or train for martial combat. They are simply animated corpses. They should in no way EVER be more powerful or even equal in terms of power to the creatures you can bring from other planes. You are making a deal with a creature that is very much able and willing to tell you to pike off and go do its own thing.

Yes im aware of liches, dracoliches and other sentient Undead are an exception here but we are talking MINDLESS undead that are created as meatshields basicly. The Palemaster has a slew of other benefits and abilities that make the class incredibly powerful for any evil/neutral PC. the school of necromancy itself has a plethora of usefull spells for dealing with threats and is in no way a weak school. You dont NEED an undead army to make a statement or be effective in combat. The game itself is designed around people working in groups anyway!

The whole "animating dead makes you evil so its unfair" is a stupid argument because the same could be said for summoning devils, demons and certain other planar creatures. There are other options available. Not all summons are created equal. This is not some MMORPG where everything has to be balanced for "fairness sake" this is an RPG world where actions have consequences. Some creatures are just stronger than others, thats all there is to it. Someone summons an angel against your demon or devil Banish the damn thing!

1) Right I understand a single undead is not suppose to be on par or better then a planenar creature. In a 1 v 1 there is no competition the planar creature will always win. But you forgetting the fact about just the sheer amount of things a master necromancer is suppose to summon compared to the 1 or 2 planar summons a master conjurationist summons. The only reason necromancers summon 4 undead in game is because its a game (and a very old game mind you) a game that cant handle the sheer amount of flesh that would be thrown at you in theory because it would be ridiculously taxing to the engine and the server. So what do we do? We make up for the fact that you can't summon 160 undead at will by making the 4 you can summon in game have the equivalent strength and prowess the army that would be there would have. Again obviously you need a bit of imagination but that is how it's suppose to be. Currently I don't see how at all nerfing animate dead aims to (fix?) that immersion. The current fodder you get from the spell does not make you feel like a master of the dead at all, it makes you feel like you just dropped out of the school of necromancy in sshmath after the 1st semester.

2) This topic has nothing to do about palemasters other abilities this is strictly talking about summons, summoners, the power of their summons and what we who play these summoners think should be the case to how powerful or how many summons they should get. Again ->if<- there was another PRC that gave you great boons for your summons like thamaturge but for necromancers I guarantee Palemaster wouldn't even be a topic of discussion here because to me I feel the palemaster summon are garbage to begin with. . . An unarmed swashbuckler vampire. . . HA! That's hilarious. Someone go make a unarmed swashbuckler build and tell me how well that works out.

HA! Don't even get me started on that pale-master summon they get that comes with NO WEAPON and 20 levels of a class that revolves around USING A WEAPON with a LOW CRIT RANGE ultimately making that summon. . . (ready for this?) USELESS!

3)Agreed it's not an MMO this is a server that is based (around) not on a PnP setting. It has consequences, lore and decisions to be made. That being said there is a reason necromancy is a punishable offense in most places that could get you killed thus, I don't think necromancers would study necromancy if it didn't pay off.

This is not some MMORPG where everything has to be balanced for "fairness sake" this is an RPG world where actions have consequences.

Then why was animate dead nerfed?

[Rain]

I even just came up with a great idea!

Why not keep the stats of the undead on animate dead the same but make the spell similar to Elemental Swarm?

https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Elemental_Swarm

Instead make the amount of undead you get = to the casters caster level/2. (Spell focus necromancy still effecting the HD not the number)

Now you don't need to worry about animate dead scaling in the epics and for the people who do use it they still get the fodder that would be worth the spell. They would be weak, and serve no other purpose then being fodder and i'm sure for the people who want it reverted they might like this change too as a compromise.

Example:
_________________________________________________________________

Animate Dead:

Spell level : Innate level: 3, Cleric: 3, Sorcerer/Wizard: 4, Other: Cleric with Undeath domain 2
School : Necromancy
Descriptor(s) : Evil
Components : Verbal and Somatic
Range : Short
Target/Area : Point
Duration : 1 Hour * cLevel
20 Rounds (cLevel).
Save : None
Spell resistance : No


You summon 4, (HD = (CL*2)/number of undeads or CL*3 if desecrated to a max of CL20) undead to act as loyal servants until they die or until the spell expires. If the undead die before the spell ends, a HD = (CL*2) undead is automatically summoned to replace it. This process continues to animate more dead up to a maximum of the casters, caster level/2 or until the spell expires.
_________________________________________________________________

So now with the new revised animate dead you can get 15 crappy undead total that serve as fodder (16) if you a herophant with spell power.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

Nobody expects a perfectly balanced system. Just want to see outliers brought closer to the average is all. If class 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 all are similarly capable, but class 8 is useless and 9 is above and beyond, it is easier to buff 8 and Nerf 9 than buff 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and every mob on the server. This comparatively minor amount of work will provide more viable builds and thus more fun. Simply accepting that 8 is useless beyond RP while 9 surpasses it even in RP is a poor compromise.

This mentality is what scares me. So what if a classes like the favored soul is a main line battle tank with 10 dr and 10+ regeneration, innate haste, a spell that gives them fighter BAB and a close to unlimited supply of healing and utility spells. You can never balance that against something like a ranger or a rogue.

All we are going to do by cutting the "overpowered" abilities in the game is to destroy already interesting classes and combos.

The great strength of Dungeons and Dragons 3.5e and the BGTSCC server is things have never been balanced, and I think in 10 years the server has struck its own balance that works.

To many good games have destroyed themselves by cutting and cutting until everything interesting in the game turns bland.

Baldur's Gate rocks! lets keep it that way!

Thanks for a great server!

Thoughts like yours are what scares me. The mentality of "I cant think of how to fix it so you aren't allowed to touch it because you will destroy everything!" is precisely what ends up destroying good games. I cannot count the number of multiplayer games that lost droves of players due to developer inaction in balancing things. Keep in mind that there have been significant balances since this servers release. None of them brought about the demise of it.

[Wolfrayne]

If you read back they already stated they would be buffing up army of the dead.... a lvl 4 spells (2 in some domains if i remember correctly* should not give you 4 15ish HD undead....

[Rain]

If you read back they already stated they would be buffing up army of the dead.... a lvl 4 spells (2 in some domains if i remember correctly) should not give you 4 15ish HD undead....

There are already lvl 4 spells that give you 4, 15ish HD summons. (Sand Warriors?)


And with the nerf to Animate Dead the undead that would come from it would not be HD 15ish, More like HD 10 but you get alot of them that replace eath-other which is how animate dead work in PnP with a little imagination. Thus giving the immersion of summoning a small army of weak undead for fodder and I suppose to showcase your practice of being a badass necromancer.

Although you still have yet to explain why animate dead was nerfed in the first place. . . Judging by your claim:

This is not some MMORPG where everything has to be balanced for "fairness sake" this is an RPG world where actions have consequences.

If this was the case animate dead would have never been nerfed and thus this discussion never brought up and debated.

[Planehopper]

Although you still have yet to explain why animate dead was nerfed in the first place. . .

Answered on page 3 by Maecius.

Getting pretty close to a lock here. My suggestion would be for everyone to reread what has already been stated, and discuss ideas - not make assumptions about others or make this about each other.

[Akroma666]

This thread just reaffirms my belief that that staff is openly biased against evil PCs. The stats, duration, and selection alone is enough to convince me that planer ally is miles better than any necromancy summon and has zero negative RP consequences.

Sure 12 minutes or half a rest is enough, when you dont factor in the other 6 spells needed to buff the summon to keep it alive. The dual wielding angel is miles better than the vampire warrior when fully buffed, and it actually lasts a full rest.

[Rain]

Although you still have yet to explain why animate dead was nerfed in the first place. . .

Answered on page 3 by Maecius.

Getting pretty close to a lock here. My suggestion would be for everyone to reread what has already been stated, and discuss ideas - not make assumptions about others or make this about each other.

1) Failing to see any reason why you would think anyone was making assumptions about another person or attacking each-other in this debate that would warrant a lock. . . But ok?

2) I myself, know why it was nerfed yes but that question was not for you or for Maeicus to answer I gave it to Wolfrayne to seek his answer and opinion because this is a debate not a lecture.

3) Refer to what was said above and you would realize the current topic is on point about an idea I gave and is now being discussed and debated.

[Planehopper]

Locked.

Feel free to discuss in PMs.