Character Death (MvP & PvP/CvC)

[Calen]

I see the pro's and con's of a perma death system, a 3 strikes you're out so to say.

Pro's

1: It could make DM events a lot more fun when there is a risk involved, wouldn't mind a 3 strikes out on DM events.
2: It makes people more wary with who they party and how they tackle an encounter.
3: It would add value to some PVP/RP plots
4: It adds immersion , you can actually die rather than port back and start again.

Cons:

1: It will make people lean even more towards power building.
2: It can cause quite some drama with PVP.
3: Some deaths are frustrating . LAg deaths are one of them,bugs or If there is no party you risk getting killed or be bored.
4: Mixing character levels with DM events might end up not fun for the lower levels.


Why I think it shouldn't be done with BGC"s rule set:

- BGC is not an hardcore RP server, a perma death system doesn't suit the setting.
It's more an MMORPG server where you can RP and grind with an large overall moving plot.
The server is tolerant to all sorts of RP and people and that is what makes it so long lasting and appealing.

- The grind on BGC is a bit too much for a perma death system, especially past 21 it gets really tedious.

- Adding this rule will make some people upset that just like their character and don't want to be forced to let go of it.

- I think there are some bigger elephants in the room that could be adjusted before we hit perma death.
The 20/3 rule breaks so many fun non powerbuilds/ Not enough usage for RP skills and the freedom to ignore them.

- People will meta game this too much, imagine when you RP a warlock. Most PC's know you're a pact mage by looking at the beam.
This alone kind of puts you at risk for a perma.


In the end I think having a DM state this even has a perma death risk in it is as good as it can get here.
I've seen it a couple of times though never participated in them as my PC was evil and wouldn't bother with ' helping others for a smile' .



Edit:

When it comes to PVP I tend to use either 3 strikes or perma right away. It really depends if there is a meta involved.
The problem is that a lot of victors like to use ' hit you unconsciousness' and this on my behalf kills the RP. On the other hand I don't like killing off other people their characters and avoid pvp at all times regardless of my own level .

[Wolfrayne]

To me it depends on the situation. Personally i treat most "deaths" as more... the soul is leaving the body so if we don't do something soon he will be gone" type thing or simply a knockout. Deaths by lag or bugs that happen sometimes i just ignore because that is in no way the fault of the PC. Also yeah it depends on the method of death.. hard to walk away from a finger of death of banshee wail when the spells literally kill you.

When it comes to PVP again it depends. for example Reiker probably wouldn't kill someone depending on the crime/severity of what has happened. Cyrus on the other hand is pure evil and would simply kill without remorse, if you are alive you are a loose end that needs to be tied up, although he is a lot more careful about the people he "kills" usually i wont bother with is simply because they will choose to come back and it leads to too many metagamey problems for my liking

I don't want to sound like im being an arse but in my opinion if you lose at a pvp and you are laying on the floor.. its not up to you if you live or die. Its up to the victor, if they want you dead.. you're dead.

[InsomnesCanis]

... if you lose at a pvp and you are laying on the floor.. its not up to you if you live or die. Its up to the victor, if they want you dead.. you're dead.

While what youre saying is correct by all IC regards, its not realizing what its asking of the player whos character on is on the ground in order to rp the scene proper.
And a bit of a disclaimer- what im writing is probably most true to player who like their RP 'medium' and heavier and who play for the immersion with their characters to the point where the can bleed-out character's emotions as their own or have an emotional impact as a result of their character's story. And much less probably to those who prefer light RP and having a revolving door of toons to toss into the fray.
I'd hate to draw on bdsm in this forum but it's the comparison the works the best to draw on, but i'll stick to the point i'm trying to make with this.
The point is trust and agency.. much like bdsm, there is a clear power dynamic that asks one party (sub) to relinquish agency over themselves (in this case a projection of themselves as manifest in the character they developed, the time and the energy they put into developing it) to another (dom) which will assume agency for the both of them. It takes the sub to trust there won't be misuse on the dom's side of said agency, and it's also up to the dom to create the environment that the sub can give this trust in.
Now, this is really where the similarities end since bdsm is a whole relationship that is so far from the scope were playing at, by the psychology of power dynamics, in my eyes, stands.
To translate it to BG terms: "I want to trust the player who beat me in PvP to treat my fallen character with the same care for my enjoyment as he would their own; Set up re-encounters, drag me along, involve me in some way, provide the challenge to escape or the opportunity to set up a meaningful plot as consequence of the character's death" It's a responsibility of the winning side to make the loss satisfying for the loser, making it comfortable for them to lose and enjoy it.
It's the anxiety that months or in some cases years of work would abruptly end to a mechanical technicality that's rped to it's bare minimum, instead of an amazing ending to a great story.
Of course, this is all my opinion and i can always know more, so feedback will be welcome. And if the comparison drawn was inappropriate i will edit somehow to make sense otherwise (or not make sense at all )

[chad878262]

There are a few issues with the analogy, besides being ew (but to each their own).

1. There is already rules that allows your character to never PvP ever.... Yes some occasional IC or OOC jerk player will taunt you (either IC or OOC though OOC is rule breaking!) but elsewise you literally cannot be attacked without consent.

2. Your argument is that Medium - Heavy RP'ers somehow can fully shrug off their PC's death to PvP countless times while 'light' RP'ers easily do so which is complete poop. Go look at some of Darradarljod's posts about his 'revolving door' of characters and tell me that guy isn't a dedicated 'Heavy RP'er'.

3. Regardless of RP heavy or light or anywhere in between, connection to a character is not necessarily the determining factor in quality RP of that character. I refuse to believe that every player who RP's an evil psychopath somehow connects with that character on any sort of deep level since that would mean we got ourselves a whole lot o' psycho's running around.

Look, this debate will never truly be answered besides the way it already has. On BGtSCC things are likely to stay the status quo with a few players dedicated to real character deaths when it makes sense for it to happen that way (i.e. PvP deaths where there is no way for the PC to be raised, RP deaths where they were hanged in BG or Darkhold or whatever and body destroyed, in some cases even PvE deaths where no one comes along and raises them). The (likely) majority on the other hand will treat death as 'knockout' regardless of the cause of death and will in some cases PvP many times, boasting their victories and completely ignoring any defeats etc. However, to call out players who are willing to stop playing a character as somehow a lesser RP'er is simply false and to be honest insulting to some of the best on the server. Just my opinion though, I have only been in game once this year so not really sure what the current RP is like or anything, but that last post is either grossly misinformed or a cheap shot at folks that don't deserve it.

[InsomnesCanis]

1. The point was not to allow for non-engagement, but to find a way to allow for engagement in a better way. I personally think that 'Do you consent to Die?' is much better question than 'Do you consent to PvP?' But maybe that's just me.

2. That's not my argument at all.. nor was it an assertion that 'type A player likes this thing and type be like that thing''. It was 'This might resonate with players who like A more than with players who like B'.

3. Of course it's not a determining factor for quality RP, but it is a determining factor in people feeling OOC upset by pvp. Also, giiiiiaaant leap there between feeling a connection to a psychopathic character you're immersed with and being a hidden psychopath playing out secret urges (or any type of characteristic your character possess).. one is a practice of empathy, the other of deception. I spoke of the first not of the latter. I mean, most of my tabletop RP is World of Darkness, if i believed what you claim i claim to believe, i would be in a loony bin myself by now

Look, this debate will never truly be answered besides the way it already has.

That.. makes me kind of sad :\

On BGtSCC things are likely to stay the status quo with a few players dedicated to real character deaths when it makes sense for it to happen that way (i.e. PvP deaths where there is no way for the PC to be raised, RP deaths where they were hanged in BG or Darkhold or whatever and body destroyed, in some cases even PvE deaths where no one comes along and raises them).

That is amazing behavior, don't get me wrong.. what i'm aiming for is how to get that player base growing.

The (likely) majority on the other hand will treat death as 'knockout' regardless of the cause of death and will in some cases PvP many times, boasting their victories and completely ignoring any defeats etc.

And i believe this comes from the anxiety i explained about.

However, to call out players who are willing to stop playing a character as somehow a lesser RP'er is simply false and to be honest insulting to some of the best on the server.

I agree wholeheartedly, which is why i didn't. I never called players who kill their characters lesser rpers.. Who said anything about lesser? I said that it would likely be relevant more to people who don't have a revolving door of characters.. not that if you do have it you're a bad rper. If a good rper that has many characters and had killed off even more finds this resonating with them.. all the better.

Just my opinion though, I have only been in game once this year so not really sure what the current RP is like or anything, but that last post is either grossly misinformed or a cheap shot at folks that don't deserve it.

You were very quick to get defensive and in all honestly i feel you answered more to a straw man than to what i was actually saying. So i'll make it clear, its not a shot at anyone specific nor is it a claim at anyone's better or worse rp. It's a different perspective on power play and the suggestion that if it's acknowledged that pvp is a type of play between power dynamics than we will be in a position to make it more approachable and fun to that majority you are talking about, driving the status quo to engage in a fun way, rather then seeking disengagement to protect fun.

[Ariella]

It's never going to happen. Stop trying to control other peoples characters.

[InsomnesCanis]

Ariella i'm not sure i follow
who's trying to control who's characters? What language am i writing in?

[Deathgrowl]

I like my heavy RP and immersion in line with the more objective setting than a vast array of subjective, personal player preferences.

[Steve]

Based on the recent focus on Perma-Death = /≠ Character Death, I remind people to (re)visit the Original Post.

Thank you to everyone that has given constructive commentary in this discussion.

So again, the main question posed was: how do you view (un)meaningful Death(s) for your Character in regard to Player vs. Encounter, Player vs. Player, Character vs. Character, or Lag, or whatever types of "death" that a PC can experience. The validity of Perma-Death as an applicable tool is not the main point.

Somewhat expected, most Players have found a personal solution to each experience, some shared solutions among many, and overlap between the experiences and how we deal with them as a Player, so that we enjoy the Role-play experience. For example, many Players prefer to "write off" a lag death, and same with PvE deaths, and pay it little mind. Another example is that many Players will themselves hold their Character to a 3 Lives per Character, and those Lives are tied to DM Events or Character vs. Character deaths, which helps create a "story arc" and probably some tension in the experience.

The rational to NOT apply perma-death to your PC in any experience is also taken, by many, and BGTSCC supports this choice. I, and many others it would seem, think and feel this lessons the game experience of conflict in CvC, in the PvP encounter, and especially the DM campaign/event. It also removes any sense of challenge as well, mechanically AND in Role-play, if there is no need to "worry" about the continued existence of your PC. Some Player think Perma-Death in any form completely ruins the Story of our Characters, because then that story would be taken out of our own hands (possibly), so to speak.

BGTSCC currently supports the Player choosing when and where their PC really dies. However, it also supports Perma-strikes. BGTSCC Perma-Death Rules. Show of hands of Players that have a PC with a Perma-strike?

Mechanically, our PCs do die—reaching -10 Hit Points—but also there is the "mechanics" of Raise Dead and Resurrection. This is not the issue posed here, that it makes no sense to "come back from Death's clutches..."

The issue is that if one of us or all of us are RPing our Characters with the OOC/meta knowledge that our Characters can ALWAYS come back from the Dead, what sort of Experience within this Game/PW does that leave us with?

BGTSCC is not necessarily a game of chance and skill...but maybe it actually could foster this experience a little bit more, if there was support for it, from the top and bottom.

Cheers.

[chad878262]

I agree wholeheartedly, which is why i didn't. I never called players who kill their characters lesser rpers..

I suppose I misread this

what im writing is probably most true to player who like their RP 'medium' and heavier and who play for the immersion with their characters to the point where the can bleed-out character's emotions as their own or have an emotional impact as a result of their character's story. And much less probably to those who prefer light RP and having a revolving door of toons to toss into the fray.

seems to call out those who perma their characters as the 'revolving door of toons' being light RP while those who don't are teh only ones who have an emotional attachment to their characters story. In any case, perhaps just a verbiage issue getting in the way of your message.

[thids]

[DaloLorn]

Well that's okay then, they can't hit the horse.

[AgentOrange]

With BG being a high level server, people would have access to True Resurrection, even if a body can't be recovered.

[Balthomer]

It's never going to happen. Stop trying to control other peoples characters.

[Balthomer]

It's never going to happen. Stop trying to control other peoples characters.