Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2019)

[electric mayhem]

Oh I agree Rav, heaps of positive change has been made.
Point I probably should have made mention of, is perception is everything. Fact or Non.
The People will see what they want to see.

[ShineDown]

Divine power is a pnp based spell and in line with the version of the game.
Why is the pnp version wrong?

[Blackman D]

in pnp you can spend 15 mins playing out a single round of combat and as such you dont walk around fully buffed nor do you actually cast so many spells before combat and then go to town, you use spells wisely or not at all depending on the situation

nwn accelerates that quite a bit... so the actual advantage is considered overkill in a game setting to some

[ShineDown]

in pnp you can spend 15 mins playing out a single round of combat and as such you dont walk around fully buffed nor do you actually cast so many spells before combat and then go to town, you use spells wisely or not at all depending on the situation

nwn accelerates that quite a bit... so the actual advantage is considered overkill in a game setting to some

Yes but it is 6 seconds per level not 60. It is already not overpowered. But the question above all I'd rather have answered is what exactly is this 'balancing' ?
By that I mean what is your zero? What is the balance against which everything is being compared? I've seen balancing used quite a bit lately but no one has made any mention of what the balance is against. 2+2 = 2+1+1. That is balance. If Divine power is to be balanced, I'd care to hear your formula, if there is any formula. If there is no actual formula, this is not balancing at all.

Classes aren't and never were meant to be equal. :^)

[Zeland]

Why nerf something that has been the same for 10 years. Yes fs/clerics are good at everything, but they are not great at one thing. Sure they do decent damage (edm clerics/fs that is) consistently, however some builds do crazy amounts of damage in short time (300+) and have the ability to hips or some do okay damage over a long time but have ridiculous ac.

Think fs/clerics get targeted for nerfs because they are the best average build, but certain other builds destroy them in their respected strengths.

Just a thought. Instead of taking away. How about we 'give' to those that are less fortunate?

^this

No one likes to see their class nerfed, seems like a better idea to buff the less powerful classes.

[ShineDown]

Why nerf something that has been the same for 10 years. Yes fs/clerics are good at everything, but they are not great at one thing. Sure they do decent damage (edm clerics/fs that is) consistently, however some builds do crazy amounts of damage in short time (300+) and have the ability to hips or some do okay damage over a long time but have ridiculous ac.

Clerics aren't amazing at everything but having the ability to be in frontline combat is good. Anyone who says clerics are equal to fighters in combat don't play a cleric. Even with divine power and the trimmings you will never find a cleric that does the melee output of a fighter ever unless the build of the fighter is severely gimped. And clerics were not ever meant to be. Because they are clerics, the closest to their gods, given power by the gods, the most powerful beings in the universe. Can they have the same bab for the entire existence as a fighter on the server? No. 6 seconds a level. That's 180 seconds each cast at level 30, 270 whole seconds if it's extended. Still not even 5 minutes. Can divine power be dispelled? Definitely. Do clerics stack str every 4 levels for better ab and dmg? No.

Comparing a fighter to a cleric is a lie. I play one and I play a fighter. My fighter could outkill ANYTHING before the cleric could even get the melee dmg going. 2 skill points per level won't make you amazing at anything.

in pnp you can spend 15 mins playing out a single round of combat and as such you dont walk around fully buffed nor do you actually cast so many spells before combat and then go to town, you use spells wisely or not at all depending on the situation

nwn accelerates that quite a bit... so the actual advantage is considered overkill in a game setting to some

Yes, in pnp you play for 15 minutes on a round, ok, got it. That's still only 6 seconds of your spell so I'm not understanding what that has to do with the nerf? Are you saying that in pnp because you play for 15 minutes the spell should be over? I don't get anything of what you're trying to say there, Blackman. You don't buff up before combat in dnd? I buff up in dnd before a fight. Everyone I have ever known does. If they have spells anyway or a potion. And of course we don't use spells if we don't need to.

As to the acceleration part, this server isn't the easiest, most fast xp grind out there. Characters get killed in pve all the time. Have you seen some of the events the dms have done over the years? They can be slaughterfests. How one spell that raises your fighting level to a fighters for under five minutes, fully maxed out is considered overkill in this game setting is almost insulting to hear. You are talking like this is some all powerful persistent spell (that cannot be just dispelled) that clerics just have on whenever they're online.

[Hoihe]

People keep asking for "challenging content" while playing things that have no drawbacks and a ton of power. Players who actually choose not to pick the best tools in the toolbox because we ignore a ton of prcs and classes that need to be used, will suffer as people keep clamoring for tougher and tougher content for their easy builds.

By reducing the gap between the best and the mediocre, players might actually finally start using all the new PRCS and frats we have.

An entire class was made redundant by this spell. A class that was meant for divine casters to take they wanted to melee.

A cleric with 10 str and dex at lvl 30 can get 50 AB for free - 20 AB bonus and 30 BAB.

As an arcanist gish, i either need to gimp my main casting stat or take a feat to have remotely similar AB - and i'd not deal any dmg and make way less apr. To be anywhere near a cleric's prowess i need to sacrifice the like of 10 ish cl - taking a prestige class to be able to not wear armour/cast in armour (-4/5 cl from bs or duelist), taking a prestige class to deal decent (20-30) dmg (-5 cl), taking a prestige class that eats 1 cl. Or not sacrifice 5 cl but spend 3 epic feats to be able to cast in armour. With all this, i got a BAB for 21 and a cl of 20 and a dex/int of mod 8. With all this, i only got +10 ab from the spells i can cast. I can also drink 2 cleric pots for +12. My dcs suck, i cant heal, everything can dispel me. My only advantage is 57 AC if i am ok with having only 33 AB. And i still can't heal myself or have spell resistance.

For the last 8 ab bonus, i MUST give up my ability to drink poyions of heal or cast spells.


Clerics? dump wis and get to level 30 and cast their buffs and DP and boom - 50 AB. For free. at 6 apr, 7 with haste. their dmg isnt that high, but they can get 13 str, get IPA and wield a 2 hander and not even notice either the AC loss from 2 handing thanks to extended regen and dr, nor the ab loss due to having 30 BAB + 20 AB + 3 STR. For free. No drawbacks. With a morningstar, that is at least 1d8 + 4 + 5 + 9 dmg not counting divine favour and other dmg buffs.

Meanwhile i need to play MAD, get only 21 bab, 26 int/dex buffed, 20 cl, dip into SD to dodge dispels and gain access to EW, Can only heal with pots or clickies, and do 1d6 + 2x8 + 5 +1d6 dmg using a piercing weapon after getting 11 levels of martial classes with an AB of 21 + 8 + 5 + 4. With 11 levels of 0 cl progression.

Now? clerics will be limited at least to a min ab of 42 ( 22 BAB and 20 AB bonus) - still for completely free.

[Wildsheep]

Although comparing wizards to clerics isn't a good idea as wizards still have a ton more utility.

[Deragnost]

People keep asking for "challenging content" while playing things that have no drawbacks and a ton of power. Players who actually choose not to pick the best tools in the toolbox because we ignore a ton of prcs and classes that need to be used, will suffer as people keep clamoring for tougher and tougher content for their easy builds.

By reducing the gap between the best and the mediocre, players might actually finally start using all the new PRCS and frats we have.

An entire class was made redundant by this spell. A class that was meant for divine casters to take they wanted to melee.

A cleric with 10 str and dex at lvl 30 can get 50 AB for free - 20 AB bonus and 30 BAB.

As an arcanist gish, i either need to gimp my main casting stat or take a feat to have remotely similar AB - and i'd not deal any dmg and make way less apr. To be anywhere near a cleric's prowess i need to sacrifice the like of 10 ish cl - taking a prestige class to be able to not wear armour/cast in armour (-4/5 cl from bs or duelist), taking a prestige class to deal decent (20-30) dmg (-5 cl), taking a prestige class that eats 1 cl. Or not sacrifice 5 cl but spend 3 epic feats to be able to cast in armour. With all this, i got a BAB for 21 and a cl of 20 and a dex/int of mod 8. With all this, i only got +10 ab from the spells i can cast. I can also drink 2 cleric pots for +12. My dcs suck, i cant heal, everything can dispel me. My only advantage is 57 AC if i am ok with having only 33 AB. And i still can't heal myself or have spell resistance.

For the last 8 ab bonus, i MUST give up my ability to drink poyions of heal or cast spells.


Clerics? dump wis and get to level 30 and cast their buffs and DP and boom - 50 AB. For free. at 6 apr, 7 with haste. their dmg isnt that high, but they can get 13 str, get IPA and wield a 2 hander and not even notice either the AC loss from 2 handing thanks to extended regen and dr, nor the ab loss due to having 30 BAB + 20 AB + 3 STR. For free. No drawbacks. With a morningstar, that is at least 1d8 + 4 + 5 + 9 dmg not counting divine favour and other dmg buffs.

Meanwhile i need to play MAD, get only 21 bab, 26 int/dex buffed, 20 cl, dip into SD to dodge dispels and gain access to EW, Can only heal with pots or clickies, and do 1d6 + 2x8 + 5 +1d6 dmg using a piercing weapon after getting 11 levels of martial classes with an AB of 21 + 8 + 5 + 4. With 11 levels of 0 cl progression.

Now? clerics will be limited at least to a min ab of 42 ( 22 BAB and 20 AB bonus) - still for completely free.

I still remain of my idea: low magic world. Enough caster nonsense at this point. Less dramas.

[Moltrazahn]

We could solve the powerstruggle by letting everyone start as a commoner, then progress to a class... and then use the last two as prestige classes xD.

This is the new 3b20 rule!

5C3B20 rule.

*nods sagely*

The peasentry shall feel envigorated by the boons they are left to have.

Jest aside.

I am glad the team is trying to bring some balance between the various classes. And if you look at class combination or spells... some were too much to be left on the server.

Persists spell?
Living undeath.
Monk1/druid29.
"The mailman" builds

A lot of changes have been made to ensure there aint any "best" combos. Divine power simply falls under this catagory. Becaise you momentarily just because an equal level spellcasting fighter.

I think its a fair change. even if it will make me reconsider some builds.

But I like crafting builds... so eh. Life ^^

[Ewe]

How about we just leave things alone? Why do you have to change stuff on the players and make us feel obligated to RCR? It feels really bad from a player point of view to have RP'd a PC for many years using this spell all the while and now having to RCR all that away because some dev decides to mess with a core ability everyone uses.

Also, the OP gives no explanation or justification just a formula. What about the non-cleric who scrolls/potions this with already 30bab? A direct mandatory ab buff now for them?

[Wildsheep]

New formula :

AB increase equal to 1/4 hit dice +1.

Does this mean I can play a Fighter with UDM and get a bunch of ab from this scroll even though I'm already high bab?

[Ewe]

Yea DP consumable now benefits a high bab pc more than any cleric build. Ridiculous.

[Deathgrowl]

Since Valefort didn't post the correct formula yet, here it is:

CL/4+1 or HD/4+1, whichever is lowest.

[Deathgrowl]

The requirements here need some clarification.

For Druid and Cleric, the requirement is always 19 Wisdom.

For Spirit Shaman, the requirement is 19 Wisdom OR 19 Charisma.