Game Balance

[AlwaysSummer Day]

I welcome and appreciate the balancing including the nerfs. Good work!

+1

Fixing things like Auto hitting expose weakness, practiced spellcaster putting CL above 30, and infinite pickpockets were probably tough to repair but I am happy they are fixed.

[Hoihe]

A game is more fun if there are more viable ways to tackle the same challenge.

If you have a small set of perfect plays - why would anyone deviate from them, especially if the potential rp those perfrct plays provide is of sufficient quality.

By evening the power field - either through buffing the rest to be just as op or nerfing the perfect choices to have drawbacks, people will use the rest of the toolbox.

And if you nerf the perfect choices, you can also have challenging content without forcing everyone else to also pick this limited set of tools.

And also divine power is still WAY BETTER than Tensers. uncomparably better.

[Young Werther]

I hope the devs add battle royal mode

[TheKai]

I’d like the UMD system from Neverwinter Nights implemented.

[Steve]

Ooh! Game balance suggestions...my favorite!

Here's one: double the Rest Timer but make Resting possible anywhere, as long as you have Skills to back up creating a safe zone. Else, support reason to use existing IC safe zones (I.e. Inns, campfires, etc). Remove the Rest Interrupter script unless your PC is actually Hit in an Attack.

[Svabodnik]

If BGtSCC has really felt like playing a different game every year, I'm distraught that I've joined the server so late. I'm not sure how your scripters have pulled off the 'Shadowrun' or 'World or Darkness' phase, or how your DMs have managed to tie it into the Forgotten Realms pre-'Time of Troubles' setting, but my imagination runs wild at the possibilities. I would have loved to have played it during the FPS era, and while I'm not all that good at the genre, I do like turn-based strategies. However, ever since I've joined, it's pretty much been NWN2, with a caveat or two.

Funposting aside, I mostly just wanted to reply to a couple of things, and to begin with I'd like to append something to this token of wisdom right here:

[...]balancing the game often requires more than changing one thing, but adjusting many things simultaneously.[...]

While sufficiently self-explanatory, I'd like to tag on: "by changing one thing, you will also be influencing a multitude of other things, whether intentional or not".


The 3/20 Rule:
Please don't change this. As someone who enjoys character building, for me this has been a breath of fresh air. Level 1 dips have been a common tool for powerbuilding in D&D 3.5 since forever, and for NWN2 since day one. To limit it before the introduction of Epic feats changes the game even more, and in a good way. Personally, the fun of building doesn't just come down to the options of what is available, but to the give-and-take prioritization during the selection process.

Given sufficient options and a goal to be accomplished, there will always be a "less optimal" and a "more optimal" path. If we're going to be giving players options in how to build their characters outside of "Rock", "Paper", or "Scissors", there will always be "powerbuilds". In fact, rather than "powerbuilds" and "things that aren't powerbuilds", there is a gradient. There is a spread of difference between the "couple powerbuilds around which the server is balanced", whose legends are carved in stone and whose name the common people won't even dare speak (not even to me!), and the worst example of randomly clicking buttons at each level-up. However, I doubt that the balance decisions on the server, from what I've seen, have clung to such mythical beings.

Given my personal experience, and those of the other players whom I've occasionally joined, the content seems to be fine. Somehow starting with an aesthetic/visual/story representation of what one would want a character to be, and then trying to translate it into a mechanical representation, has worked out, regardless of being (often intentionally) suboptimal.

To futher extrapolate on level 1 dips, not only are 1 Cleric (for domain powers) or 1 Shadowdancer (for HiPS) the norms for powerbuilding. Among the "little-to-no prerequsites" group: 2 Fighter for minimal cost for free combat feats, 1 Pale Master for +1 NAT AC to any arcane caster, and 1 Monk for WIS to AC for any unarmored character (and also quick access to Ki Step on this server, which is an absolutely amazing ability), just as quick examples. The fewer the levels, the less imact a dip will carry over into the rest of the build. Practiced Spellcaster will cover up to 4 levels of CL of such casual dips. Really gets the noggin' joggin' about why INT to damage from Swashbuckler (Insightful Strike) was moved from level 3 to level 5, while EK only drops one caster level in its full-AB progression. I'm pretty sure no Swash 3/EK Wizard gishes had any role in that decision.


Since I was just on the subject: Caster Level...
It works perfectly fine - but since I've spent enough time tonight going full "someone's wrong on the internet" mode, I can save this until later, if only for personal satisfaction. Please don't hold me to it.


To finish, the only thing that gives me concern in regards to the future of server balance is that since I've come back I haven't seen some of the former members of QC whom I've gotten used to seeing commenting in the builder forums. Hopefully they're just taking a hiatus as I have, since I'd hate to think that the server had lost their insight in any decisions moving forward.

[c2k]

Unless the build team has actually started using custom creature AI over the last year or so, I can't see how game balance is effecting the game to a degree where it feels like playing a new game every year. A lot of these balances and tweaks to classes have been debated for the longest of time. Example, that Expose Weakness fix was supposed to be implemented 5-6 years ago when I was in QC, and it was never implemented while I was active in the game.

The only thing that changes the game every year to my knowledge is the yearly campaigns and the RP direction of the server(which is probably close to the Time of Troubles now).

As an aside for the Caster Level issue, it might be possible to make the creatures randomly decide when to throw a dispel at your character rather than just dispel you at first glance, but the game itself will never cast a spell it knows won't work on you because of the core AI built into the game.

[ARHicks00]

Ill admit the game does seem to be moving away from traditional 3.5 based D&D to a more modern MMO kinda mixed bag of stuff. Honestly while i like some changes that happen but i'm inclined to agree with steve and cosmic here.. it needs to stop. We need more content to enjoy not more changes to classes.

And i mean yeah i get it without some change the server will grow stale and i know that "builders can work on what they like since its unpaid" and "They work on the things they enjoy" and all that.. sure great i get that but a lot of people only stay because they have friends here and eventually you will change things enough that it wont matter anymore and they will leave anyway because its no longer the game they love and enjoy in the first place.

Give us changes that really matter.

I'll say it once and I'll say it again. Even Gary Gygax at one point agreed with this, which you cannot balanced DND or any DND related game. No matter how many nerfs, buffs, adding content, or keeping the races in check, the game will always be imbalanced. Changes to classes are often done because there too big of a gravitation towards said class. If everyone play a mage or cleric, both classes would get nerfed tomorrow. I can understand if nerfs are made so a class doesn't one shot the content, but the nerfs I have read where made to discourage certain builds, which in turn limits RP. For a server that prides itself on RP, it's nerf limits any interest to diverge to go with what works to play it safe. That's not insult, but rather my observation from playing NWN1 to NWN2.

Same goes with adding content.

[Deathgrowl]

To those of you who say "this has to stop" and are upset about the balance changes, I have a question: Disregard the changes here that you agree or disagree with. Are nerfs, in your opinion, ever warranted? Is the concept of nerfing something acceptable?

Why? Or alternatively, why not?

[ARHicks00]

To those of you who say "this has to stop" and are upset about the balance changes, I have a question: Disregard the changes here that you agree or disagree with. Are nerfs, in your opinion, ever warranted? Is the concept of nerfing something acceptable?

Why? Or alternatively, why not?

If the class can one shot or dominate a server with VERY LITTLE EFFORT such as a pure class cleric with no nerf buffs then yes, nerfs are acceptable. If nerfs are being done to discourage certain builds idea because of certain advantage than no. Hospitaler and Palemaster are two examples of class that should have not been nerfed by taking off additional Caster levels. I could go on and on, but I think nerfs only have their place discourage gravitation towards extremely buff classes, not powerful builds.

I say this, not just about this server, but other servers too.

[Calen]

The concept of nerfing should be done in games that are competitive or require a group of people to play together were the accent of the game in question is put on gameplay may it be pve or pvp.
The accent in D&D lies more in story telling/rp/socializing while the game play it self is secondary. Attempting to balance something like D&D/nwn2 that was never meant to be balanced feels like attempting too change it into something it is not.
The core of the game isn't about ' can we beat the frost giant king' it's about having fun with rp while doing so, trying to balance nwn2 is a slippery slope.

Personally I rather have all classes/abilities from Kaedrins class pack in than swash/barb/fighter being perfectly balanced, it's just not a game were this matters.


TLDR: I disagree with denying new classes and breaking builds for the sake of balance, I take freedom of builds over balanced game play in a game were RP/Socializing/Story telling stands central and not gameplay.

[ARHicks00]

The concept of nerfing should be done in games that are competitive or require a group of people to play together were the accent of the game in question is put on gameplay may it be pve or pvp.
The accent in D&D lies more in story telling/rp/socializing while the game play it self is secondary. Attempting to balance something like D&D/nwn2 that was never meant to be balanced feels like attempting too change it into something it is not.

The core of the game isn't about ' can we beat the frost giant king' it's about having fun with rp while doing so, trying to balance nwn2 is a slippery slope that may lead to making it less fun. How ever fun doesn't equal balance in the case of D&D and NWN2.
Personally I rather have all classes/abilities from Kaedrins class pack in than swash/barb/fighter being perfectly balanced, it's just not a game were this matters.


TLDR: I disagree with denying new classes and breaking builds for the sake of balance, I take freedom of builds over balanced game play in games were RP/Socializing/Story telling stands central and not gameplay.

Sums up my thoughts exactly.

[Steve]

D&D lies more in story telling/rp/socializing

If true, then BGTSCC should simply set Max Level to 13-15, and call it a day. Wait...more work to do. Reduce XP gain by half or even a quarter, to slow down leveling. Reduce Item enchantments to +3 max. Adjust all Areas/Dungeons to require a 3-5 Party or varied Skills/powers.

Ooh...it gets me all excited just thinking about it!!!

[Deathgrowl]

Palemaster is actually buffed from vanilla. Vanilla nwn2 has 5/10 progression. I know PnP has 9/10, but the point is that it wasn't a nerf on BGs part. Indeed, palemaster is significantly buffed because of the undead improvements as well.

Anyways: So it's only warranted to nerf something if it one-shots things? Or only in games that are competitive (I'm sure some would argue NWN2 PWs qualify for that, but as Valefort has pointed out elsewhere, PvP isn't a high priority on balance)?

Let me just be clear: I largely agree with your philosophy on what the game is about. RP and storytelling is the core of what we try to do here. But I don't agree that a game involving combat mechanics shouldn't have a balance, even if the story phenomenal. Even single player games have balance concerns. If Sarevok in the Baldur's Gate game was five levels lower than your party characters, the game would be too easy. If every other mob in the game were all pushovers, you wouldn't enjoy the game as much. Part of the immersion is in the actual mechanical challenge, because then your character is in danger of being defeated.

[ARHicks00]

D&D lies more in story telling/rp/socializing

If true, then BGTSCC should simply set Max Level to 13-15, and call it a day. Wait...more work to do. Reduce XP gain by half or even a quarter, to slow down leveling. Reduce Item enchantments to +3 max. Adjust all Areas/Dungeons to require a 3-5 Party or varied Skills/powers.

Ooh...it gets me all excited just thinking about it!!!

1. Some builds take more than just 13 to 15 levels for their character to get true fruition and if you want to lower than bar than you make it where the characters don't go pass level one and enemies give no XP. Exaggeration is not a good discussion point, but can lead to arguments as it is a form sarcasm/cynicism.

2. Spells would have to do the same in terms of only going up to +3.

3. That is already the case in many dungeons as it requires levels of Rogue just to get through or levels of druid to get items from bushes.

Palemaster is actually buffed from vanilla. Vanilla nwn2 has 5/10 progression. I know PnP has 9/10, but the point is that it wasn't a nerf on BGs part. Indeed, palemaster is significantly buffed because of the undead improvements as well.

Anyways: So it's only warranted to nerf something if it one-shots things? Or only in games that are competitive (I'm sure some would argue NWN2 PWs qualify for that, but as Valefort has pointed out elsewhere, PvP isn't a high priority on balance)?

Let me just be clear: I largely agree with your philosophy on what the game is about. RP and storytelling is the core of what we try to do here. But I don't agree that a game involving combat mechanics shouldn't have a balance, even if the story phenomenal. Even single player games have balance concerns. If Sarevok in the Baldur's Gate game was five levels lower than your party characters, the game would be too easy. If every other mob in the game were all pushovers, you wouldn't enjoy the game as much. Part of the immersion is in the actual mechanical challenge, because then your character is in danger of being defeated.

I played Dalelands and Skullport/Tales of Amn before it closed. Palemaster got a 8/10 progression. Although in Skullport/Tales of Amn, they buff the undead to where they can wield weapons. I made a build on that server and despite how well I made that build, the game was still changing. Instead of making a linear dungeon system, they made multiple areas for different class specialization. In otherwords, if you played a paladin, every 6 levels there was a undead area you can play in if you didn't want to deal with bandits or druidic areas.

DnD was never about PvP nor could you possibly balance PvP. Fighter has too many weaknesses and Wizard has too much generalization. No amount of nerfs would allow a Fighter overcome a Wizard. Closest is suggesting saves on all the Wizard/Sorcerers spells, but since mage classes dump their points into one attribute and can get feat to increase DC, the results would be hardly different. (Epic level spellcasters minus the Bard can get 44 or greater DC)

Now the vanilla game monsters were push over with the right build or class. DnD isn't known for it's combat, but it's RP and socializing. As I said for many years, if someone comes onto the server and makes a God-tier build and he beats the server, he's going to leave the server within a month because his sole purpose was to beat the server, not enjoy the RP. Someone who makes a God-tier character is not a threat to the entire server since we come here to RP and socialize. The only thing that is going to happen is that powergaming player is going to miss out on a lot of get togethers and special events trying to race to the top. So let him/her play the game he/she wants to play, so long as what he/she does not troll the other players on the server. Even if he does troll, he should be banned for disturbing the RP atmosphere, not on the account he's a powergamer, playing a God-tier build.

Lastly, I don't need the quests to be super challenging to be fun. The fun is met when I play alongside others on equal foot. With that being said, my Pure Fighter was extremely limited on the front lines at later levels in server as he had low level saves and low AC. I could have took the suggestion of other players about raising my AC, but then that would pigeon-hole me and other players in having to play our builds in a certain way just to exist in this server. That's what cash-cow MMORPGs do and only way to avoid that is to make the quests less challenging than super challenging. Those who ask for super challenging content aren't interest in the RP or grouping up for RP, but are using the server to make up for NWN2 lacking in solo player content.

Combine Super challenging content with nerf content and server begins to test my patience as well as lose my interest.