Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2019)

[TheKai]

Yep just crap moves on this server over and over again. No real imagination. Just cheap moves.

Very insightful!

[FrostKnight]

Didn't Endelyon mention removing the restrictions from elixirs recently in a different thread?

The proposed changes look like they're going to really benefit arcane Gish's with 24-27 BAB (or really anyone with 25-27 BAB) as an additional +3-6 AB while not being all that useful for the classes that get the spell themselves(due to how much of the AB cap clerics/favoured souls already use regularly).

I also somewhat wonder how elixirs of such will play out on a Shapechange user, particularly drinking an exlir of such before shapechanging & letting Augment Form buffs their BAB while they have a AB increase from divine power elixir.

I suppose I'm blinking a little confused at this change for the reasons listed above in this thread. Clerics & Favoured Souls have extremely long wind up times, often have feat and ability score requirements that put them behind their more mundane counterparts, don't benefit as amazingly well from a support character, are extremely reliant on their short duration buffs/wards & super vulnerable to dispel/breach.

While their more mundane counterparts, that aren't empowered by a god, can reach higher and higher into supreme offense / defense without any magic and become insane with someone providing them with buffs/wards on top of their already solid abilities.

[Yumi]

This kinda ends up turning into a noob trap as well if the player does not know that the ab limit exists

I was about to point this out as well. Back in my newb days where I brought something that had SR (took me weeks ) only to find out that it didn't stack with my SR ring, all that time and effort flushed down da pan.

Not gunna lie....I was a tad upset

Joking aside though is there not a better way to do this?

[Maecius]

Joking aside though is there not a better way to do this?

I'm sure devs would be open to alternatives, if there is a better way of achieving the same end. I don't think any acceptable alternatives came up in the QC-side discussion of this, though. I need to point out a keyword, too, in what I said above: That keyword being "acceptable." Simply proposing an alternative doesn't mean it'll be accepted by the development team if it's felt that it's not a better way for them to achieve the same end. But I don't see why they wouldn't at least entertain any seemingly sound counter proposals. The changes aren't in game yet, after all.

Of course, if the proposal is that the end should not be achieved at all -- i.e., that divine power is a perfectly fine the way it is ... ? That'll be an uphill battle to fight, because most of the developers don't seem to feel the same way. And convincing multiple people to change their opinions can be challenging, as it typically relies on a lot of trust building and outreach that usually doesn't happen in threads like these (either in the player-to-staff or staff-to-player directions). What usually happens, unfortunately, is that opposing sides of the argument entrench themselves in their positions.

[Yumi]

Right,


so lets be grown up about it and try and put forward some reasonable alternatives instead of making this a 'why i disagree' thread. I do like Steves idea:

If you want to keep Clerics empowered, and even to empower DC based FvSs, then add to the new formula + WIS modifier.

Thus:

AB increase equal to 1/4 hit dice + WIS mod.

[Okan]

Right,


so lets be grown up about it and try and put forward some reasonable alternatives instead of making this a 'why i disagree' thread. I do like Steves idea:

If you want to keep Clerics empowered, and even to empower DC based FvSs, then add to the new formula + WIS modifier.

Thus:

AB increase equal to 1/4 hit dice + WIS mod.

Considering there's a concern that spell becomes less useful to the original casters than the usage of elixirs for non-casters, I am not sure that is a sound idea. Due to bonus AB cap +Wisdom part would be wasted on Clerics/FvSouls but increase the effectiveness as a consumable which I am not sure the intent here.

If it's possible from the script side, perhaps making the bonus able to bypass the cap might normalize the impact?

[FrostKnight]

I don't think I know enough about what the admin team considers to be the problem to make solid suggestions for alternatives (let alone what already had been offered up & discarded), but I'd throw out the following two as ideas for the pile.

Would making it provide a bonus that is half BAB and the other half AB solve the majority of the issues the team is seeing? EG a level 30 with 22 BAB (a single class cleric as an example) ending up with 26 BAB and +4 AB bonus effect making it not as easily hit that 20 AB cap but still limiting how much they can benefit from other characters supporting them with Bard Inspiration / Greater Heroism etc. (half as effective as current divine power in the case of stacking with other support characters helping)

Alternatively if a large part of the issue the team is trying to resolve is the final attack per round granted by it and the extreme stacking, perhaps have the spell cap out at 25 BAB and increase what's above 25 as an AB increase effect. It'd be relatively easy to implement, I could offer a suggestion on how it could be written if needed (I don't actually think you guys would need the help writing such a simple check though the thoughts there !).

[Wildsheep]

I do share Grendunor's opinion, but I have already wrote my opinion a couple of times already.

so lets be grown up about it and try and put forward some reasonable alternatives instead of making this a 'why i disagree' thread. I do like Steves idea:
If you want to keep Clerics empowered, and even to empower DC based FvSs, then add to the new formula + WIS modifier.

Thus:

AB increase equal to 1/4 hit dice + WIS mod.

This won't change anything because your ab caps at 20, it will still overflow and you will get no benefits.

If I can't have that extra attack anymore, can I have Word of Recall?

Would be such a welcome change.

[Svabodnik]

Just noticed this, and is of a bit of interest playing a tower-shield barbarian with Whirlwind Frenzy. To summarize the changes, using a shield while Whirlwind Frenzying will no longer give a -2 AC penalty, but while raging after getting Barbarian 20 will give a -2 AC penalty?

A bit off-topic, but if two questions can be answered in one post, all the better: If meeting the pre-requisites, does the bonus feat at Barbarian 20 allow one to pick up Epic Rage? It's listed under Epic Barbarian Bonus Feats, but Barb 20 is a pre-epic level.

Thanks!

[Steve]

So, many are saying a Level 30 Cleric with 22 BAB + 20 AB bonus total equaling 42 AB is not good enough?

The same Build above could also have a 36 DC Storm of Vengeance. If you add Hierophant, 38 DC. If you add Dragonslayer and Thaumaturge you can have 44 AB and massively buffed summons coming out your ears to rofflestomp the majority of the Server Content.

Maybe the better way to think about this is that if things like Divine Power get capped, OTHER things like Bards, Dragon Druids, etc, will also get capped relatively soon, and thus the playing field will level a bit better.

Now, I know the raging argument is that there isn’t SUPPOSED to be “balance” in D&D, and you’re right to a great extent, in that a level 20 wizard or cleric should be so powerful as to be near God or Mystra’s avatar. But that is in PnP, where one isn’t 24/7 grinding and in a CPRG online sandbox.

There HAS to be some relative leveling, else the joke is bigger than many are willing to admit.

Think of “nerfing” more as leveling the field, with a goal to tease out Specialty in Class & Power, instead of God powers nonstop and with near zero difficulty in maintaining them or even acquiring them.

[Kiran]

Steve is right.

We need to nerf clerics further, no more storm of vengeance, or shields for that matter. Why would you need shields if you have your god to protect you?!

[Theodore01]

and no access to most mage spells with anyspell (without any disadvantages) !

[Ravial]

[Grendunor]

Simply proposing an alternative doesn't mean it'll be accepted by the development team

- Maecius

The issue is we have out of touch developers with their own ideas who don't have to answer to math and arguments put forward by QC. QC staff are basicly told yes thank you for your input, children should be seen and not heard. The Dev team has decided to ignore your logic because we feel X

Just because a class can do something does not mean others can't do the very same. The "balance" changes handled by the Dev team showcase a complete lack of understanding that just because one class can do something does not prevent another from achieving the same thing.

I quite frankly would like to see Valefort and chambo build a favored soul of their own and play it against something like a Barbarian 20 Divine champion 6 Anointed Knight 4

If you play with some degree of brain you'll find that the barbarian happily mows through content with Epic Dr and idiotic strength quite contently while the favoured soul is back at the transition buffing up to be slightly less competent. and saving their major buffs for harder pulls.

This change is obviously a fantastic idea for buffing non-casting Melee Hint: Elixirs

Tl:DR
QC can donate all the time they want, the dev team can has and will reserve the right to utterly ignore them in their changes.
Just because one build is competent does not make others less competent.

[Nemni]

Your attitude is a bit tiering Grendunor. A decision was made that after many rounds of buffs it was time to lower outstanding abilities a bit, since endlessly just buffing would make the servers difficulty trivial. Everyone can feel free to agree or disagree with that strategy, and everyone has their own opinions of what abilities are outliers and need tweaks, but just painting your opponents opinions as feelings and your own as logic won't convince anyone. And for the record that kind of attitude does not help with earning a QC spot either, in case anyone believed that.

The simple truth of the matter is that this server would have a hard time surviving without the work of Valefort and Chambo (with others) and thus, obviously, their opinions of how to develop the server carries a lot of weight. Arguments might change minds (though I doubt it in this particular case since it has been debated so many times) but insults never will.