Cleric/FvS Balance suggestion

[Wildsheep]

Considering that the last thread about this topic was locked, I decided to give my suggestion here.

At the present moment with the new changes the cleric/FvS will lose an attack and a few AB points.
I do not like this change because it will turn your spell selection into an odd math game that makes you think "I'm adventuring with a bard that will cast Greater Heroism and has his bard song so these spells will not stack due to the ab limit" so I'd like to suggest a different way to nerf Cleric/FvS's high AB without messing around with the ab cap.

Current change:

New Divine Power formula:

AB increase equal to 1/4 hit dice +1.

What I suggest:

-Do not change Divine Power.

-Epic Divine Might: adds your Charisma bonus to your damage instead of doubling the Charisma bonus
-Divine Might: adds half your Charisma bonus to your damage instead of your full Charisma bonus

-Recitation:
Current effect: This spell affects all allies within the spell's area at the moment you cast it. Your allies gain a +2 bonus to AC, attack rolls, and saving throws, or a + 3 bonus if they worship the same deity as you.

New effect: This spell affects all allies within the spell's area at the moment you cast it. You gain +3 bonus to AC, and saving throws.
Your allies gain a +2 bonus to AC, attack rolls, and saving throws, or a + 3 bonus if they worship the same deity as you.

I do think this is a better way to nerf both their ab and combat effectiveness without making people feel that they are getting no benefit from grouping up with people and memorizing certain spells.
I'd like to hear other people's suggestions regarding these changes

[Ariella]

Even if the staff was going to reconsider their change, i doubt it will be before they see the effects in game after the works already done. Take a beat, wait until you see the changes. Then after a few weeks offer a suggestion, you are lobbying to hard against something that has not been seen IG yet.

[Wildsheep]

Even if the staff was going to reconsider their change, i doubt it will be before they see the effects in game after the works already done. Take a beat, wait until you see the changes. Then after a few weeks offer a suggestion, you are lobbying to hard against something that has not been seen IG yet.

I see nothing wrong with giving a suggestion.
The problem arises when people start insulting each other over a change they do not like, which is not something I have done, nor do I wish it to happen.

[Bobthehero]

What about the non casters build who rely on EDM to get extra damage?

[Valefort]

For now it's just wait and see indeed, unless something completely off went unnoticed.

[chad878262]

A potential compromise that would have allowed players of Cleric's a path to 6 APR with an associated cost would have been to do something like:

Divine Power gives +6 STR and +1 AB, increasing by + 1 per 7 caster levels (+5 at CL28) in addition, every 10 CL they gain +1 BAB

Thus at CL 30 you have +3 BAB and +5 AB. A standard Cleric ends up with 22 BAB at level 30 and for many years there has been complaints that there is no reason to take a partial caster progression, high bab divine PRC. With this if you went Cleric 24/Warpriest 6 (for example) you end up with BAB 24 and (with Practiced Caster) it goes to 27 when DP is cast, thus giving a path to 6 APR. In addition, you have at least SOME ability to improve your Attack Bonus through party play, since you aren't reaching the AB cap through your own spells.

On top of this, a Favored Soul (which is likely the primary driver for this change) could NOT take levels in Paladin/Blackguard or Cleric to get EDM and could NOT take levels in Rogue (or other classes) for evasion/expose weakness while still reaching that vaunted 6 APR unless they sacrifice caster levels, which in turn will negatively impact the benefits granted by divine power.

Another option would have been to make Divine Power grant 1/2 your wisdom modifier as BAB, though this could have some unforeseen impacts with players using elixirs of owl's insight or druid players with elixirs of divine power. This is the reason I recommend the above as I believe it would still accomplish the goal that the dev team seeks to accomplish while doing a better job of keeping the benefit of party play in tact and the added bonus of making high bab/partial caster progression divine PRC's a little more enticing.

[izzul]

A potential compromise that would have allowed players of Cleric's a path to 6 APR with an associated cost would have been to do something like:

Divine Power gives +6 STR and +1 AB, increasing by + 1 per 7 caster levels (+5 at CL28) in addition, every 10 CL they gain +1 BAB

Thus at CL 30 you have +3 BAB and +5 AB. A standard Cleric ends up with 22 BAB at level 30 and for many years there has been complaints that there is no reason to take a partial caster progression, high bab divine PRC. With this if you went Cleric 24/Warpriest 6 (for example) you end up with BAB 24 and (with Practiced Caster) it goes to 27 when DP is cast, thus giving a path to 6 APR. In addition, you have at least SOME ability to improve your Attack Bonus through party play, since you aren't reaching the AB cap through your own spells.

On top of this, a Favored Soul (which is likely the primary driver for this change) could NOT take levels in Paladin/Blackguard or Cleric to get EDM and could NOT take levels in Rogue (or other classes) for evasion/expose weakness while still reaching that vaunted 6 APR unless they sacrifice caster levels, which in turn will negatively impact the benefits granted by divine power.

Another option would have been to make Divine Power grant 1/2 your wisdom modifier as BAB, though this could have some unforeseen impacts with players using elixirs of owl's insight or druid players with elixirs of divine power. This is the reason I recommend the above as I believe it would still accomplish the goal that the dev team seeks to accomplish while doing a better job of keeping the benefit of party play in tact and the added bonus of making high bab/partial caster progression divine PRC's a little more enticing.

Totally support Chad's idea. well thought ma man!

[Kaeldre]

A potential compromise that would have allowed players of Cleric's a path to 6 APR with an associated cost would have been to do something like:

Divine Power gives +6 STR and +1 AB, increasing by + 1 per 7 caster levels (+5 at CL28) in addition, every 10 CL they gain +1 BAB

Thus at CL 30 you have +3 BAB and +5 AB. A standard Cleric ends up with 22 BAB at level 30 and for many years there has been complaints that there is no reason to take a partial caster progression, high bab divine PRC. With this if you went Cleric 24/Warpriest 6 (for example) you end up with BAB 24 and (with Practiced Caster) it goes to 27 when DP is cast, thus giving a path to 6 APR. In addition, you have at least SOME ability to improve your Attack Bonus through party play, since you aren't reaching the AB cap through your own spells.

On top of this, a Favored Soul (which is likely the primary driver for this change) could NOT take levels in Paladin/Blackguard or Cleric to get EDM and could NOT take levels in Rogue (or other classes) for evasion/expose weakness while still reaching that vaunted 6 APR unless they sacrifice caster levels, which in turn will negatively impact the benefits granted by divine power.

I would advocate this suggestion. It seems to deal well with the issues of elixirs and warpriests as well.

[chad878262]

The only thing it still hurts is the low CL builds which would mostly be M20/C3/SF7, but no moreso than the current iteration. Without understanding the purpose for the change it's hard to really make a balance suggestion. If the purpose was to depower CL30 Favored Souls with EDM and/or Expose Weakness than neither change really impacts them at all for example. If that were the goal than tying DP to Wisdom would have done the trick. Favored Souls dump Wisdom and thus would have no benefit from DP and EDM Clerics generally don't take it past ~20 tops (with a WIS item). Making Divine Power give +1 AB or BAB per WIS modifier (max +8 at 26 WIS) would have done the trick.

The way it is set up now makes it appear to have been a way to depower builds using potions/elixirs/items to cast divine power (rogue's/low BAB melee), but any build that needs those weren't really anything to worry about in the first place... The new way makes it a better spell for Fighter and Barbarian types (full BAB builds) as they had no benefit from BAB or minimal (most have BAB between 26-30 so already have full attacks) so with the new iteration they can actually cheese DP to get significant increase to attack bonus and use that to stack things like IPA or ICE and NH while not worrying over loss of attack bonus.

So again, unless you understand what the purpose is it's difficult to understand if the change is doing what they wanted. I suspect it isn't because all previous discussions about divine power centered around favored souls who will see almost no impact from this change.

[The Whistler]

capping divine power's BAB bonus at wisdom modifier is a much less drastic change that I could get behind, however. what's to be done with the FvS version of the spell ? it's either going to be useless or completely untouched if you cap it at wisdom or charisma modifier respectively

[Kaeldre]

capping divine power's BAB bonus at wisdom modifier is a much less drastic change that I could get behind, however. what's to be done with the FvS version of the spell ? it's either going to be useless or completely untouched if you cap it at wisdom or charisma modifier respectively

Well, I suppose favoured souls would have to allocate some skill points into wisdom in order to make use of it. I would only cap it at wisdom. It would definitely be a change directed to lower the power of favoured souls specifically. Melee clerics would still be affected, but to a much lower extent.

It also makes matters more interesting when building your favoured soul. You would have to balance BAB gained through classes with your wisdom modifier to reach the previous AB statline. Since you are already attribute starved by trying to get epic divine might this would call for some difficult choices to be made. In essence, you would have to decide to sacrifice the strength of another attribute.

In hindsight, this seems far more intriguing than the former suggestion by Chad. I've changed my mind, I'll advocate this one instead.