TWO STYLES OF ROLEPLAYER RESOURCE USE

[Hoihe]

I'll add, ask yourself if BGTSCC would be a better gaming experience if we all started our PCs at Level 30? Try and answer it with a simple Yes or No.

If the answer is Yes, then you will want to get your PC to Level 30 as soon as possible. Luckily, there exists both fast AND slow ways to do this, on each individuals time and energy investment(s). And then once you reach Level 30 with your PC, you have some satisfaction. Do whatever you like! Heck, you can even STILL gain XP, just for kicks.

If the answer is No, then you can find satisfaction at whatever Level your PC is, and with 99% of Types of RP we can imagine (with the 1% being ERP that is against Server Rules). Satisfaction is still dependent on RL time and energy you can invest, yet, any time and energy invested can return RP or XP, and sometimes both!

Maybe the better question to ask, or a problem to pose, is: "What types of Role-playing is not possible on BGTSCC?" And as well, the question: "What types of Role-playing are least supported, that the Playerbase is looking for?"

Regarding levels, my only gripe is ability to play with other characters in more adventurous contexts due to level differences. It would be great if we would remove the "If party members are more than 7 levels away from the average party level, they get 0 XP."

I enjoy playing mentor style RP, but I can't accompany/drag along my character's pupil without them not getting any mechanical progression.

[Ewe]

There is only one style, the people who want to have fun.

This.

[Max Hatchet]

Regarding levels, my only gripe is ability to play with other characters in more adventurous contexts due to level differences. It would be great if we would remove the "If party members are more than 7 levels away from the average party level, they get 0 XP."

I enjoy playing mentor style RP, but I can't accompany/drag along my character's pupil without them not getting any mechanical progression.

yes, i agree about this

Yeah I don't fall into either of those categories either. I do both, mix it up frequently, so you can't really say someone falls into one of the two. While it's a simple two-option format, you can strip down and boil away most things to X or Y, but there are way too many variables for X and Y to ever be accurate. I only have the one character that I actively RP, Arorn, so I can safely say you probably can't stick most people with one of those tags.

Something something rushing to level 30, something something passively rping, something something people claiming to do all their stuff through RP while OOC hidden grinding, lot's of things to talk/discuss/aruge about here though.

I have said most people are a mix of the two categories - i am myself - only some people are purely one or the other.

In any system you can usually make different divisions to make different sets according to your parameters

I've chosen to highlight two types according to certain parameters - this is mostly to highlight and discuss how resources are used on the server and how the player base has divergent attitudes

Certainly you could divide the roleplayers into three, four, five... ten types if you wanted to and that might be of interest also

I've raised this subject to try to bring some understanding. My perception is that some people who are mostly 'Type 1s' regard 'Type 2s' as 'grinders' and not roleplayers. While many 'Type 2s' regard 'Types 1s' as cliquey. I genuinely think this is a shame if there is a divide between the player base. As i've said - i enjoy both types of playing.

[Hoihe]

I've raised this subject to try to bring some understanding. My perception is that some people who are mostly 'Type 1s' regard 'Type 2s' as 'grinders' and not roleplayers. While many 'Type 2s' regard 'Types 1s' as cliquey. I genuinely think this is a shame if there is a divide between the player base. As i've said - i enjoy both types of playing.

Sounds like an attempt to incite a civil war between Rpers.


In all seriousness idk if cliquey works in the example unless you're trying to say all of them are saying everybody is in a clique and divided, which the farmlands campfire kinda destroys that notion anyway since everybody from pretty much all factions show up there at some point or another.

As for grinders well everybody grinds a little bit and anybody who says otherwise is probably fibbing to you.

It's just a question of communal vs solo.

Some people only grind until they find someone, and then they default to something drastically different.

[Steve]

Regarding levels, my only gripe is ability to play with other characters in more adventurous contexts due to level differences. It would be great if we would remove the "If party members are more than 7 levels away from the average party level, they get 0 XP."

I enjoy playing mentor style RP, but I can't accompany/drag along my character's pupil without them not getting any mechanical progression.

You can still RP mentoring, and adventure with greatly varying Leveled toons, just do not Group up. If they kill a mob, they'll get XP. RP XP will also happen, so there IS mechanical progression going on. It is just not equal to what happens in a Grouped Party.

But I'm sure you can see clearly that this mechanical Limit is in place because otherwise, higher Level toons could just grind while a lower level toon sits in Invisibility, and gets 50xp points a kill for doing nothing but being "around."

And, a very specific way to do this is for your mentor PC to NEARLY kill a mob, then let the pupil PC finish it off. The pupil gets all the XP, then. It is a very hardcore RP action, but it proves that what seems impossible is actually possible.

[DaloLorn]

I'll add, ask yourself if BGTSCC would be a better gaming experience if we all started our PCs at Level 30? Try and answer it with a simple Yes or No.

If the answer is Yes, then you will want to get your PC to Level 30 as soon as possible. Luckily, there exists both fast AND slow ways to do this, on each individuals time and energy investment(s). And then once you reach Level 30 with your PC, you have some satisfaction. Do whatever you like! Heck, you can even STILL gain XP, just for kicks.

If the answer is No, then you can find satisfaction at whatever Level your PC is, and with 99% of Types of RP we can imagine (with the 1% being ERP that is against Server Rules). Satisfaction is still dependent on RL time and energy you can invest, yet, any time and energy invested can return RP or XP, and sometimes both!

Maybe the better question to ask, or a problem to pose, is: "What types of Role-playing is not possible on BGTSCC?" And as well, the question: "What types of Role-playing are least supported, that the Playerbase is looking for?"

Regarding levels, my only gripe is ability to play with other characters in more adventurous contexts due to level differences. It would be great if we would remove the "If party members are more than 7 levels away from the average party level, they get 0 XP."

I enjoy playing mentor style RP, but I can't accompany/drag along my character's pupil without them not getting any mechanical progression.

I mean, I understand why it's there... but it still sucks for mentoring, yeah. That's one of the main reasons why I might answer yes on most PCs. (Another reason is that different members of a group will level at different paces, because when did you last see people who only played with each other? )

Sounds like an attempt to incite a civil war between Rpers.


In all seriousness idk if cliquey works in the example unless you're trying to say all of them are saying everybody is in a clique and divided, which the farmlands campfire kinda destroys that notion anyway since everybody from pretty much all factions show up there at some point or another.

As for grinders well everybody grinds a little bit and anybody who says otherwise is probably fibbing to you.

It's just a question of communal vs solo.

Some people only grind until they find someone, and then they default to something drastically different.

Truth. I can't grind without getting bored so I'll usually jump ship as soon as I see potential for RP

Of late, I've been unable to convince myself to grind, period - unless it was with at least one other player. Even then, I'll prefer to RP if possible, as opposed to mindlessly charging around in circles somewhere.

[Darkwind]

If we accept the facts that the game and the Server are both fundamentally flawed, and nothing will change either, at least you play with what you got. And if that makes you happy, you stay. If it frustrates a person, they leave pretty soon. Of course, there is also the third type that just suffers through the (#2)!

This is the stark, cold, objective, unbending reality of the situation. Anything else is just empty theory and hand waving. Interestingly, I fall almost directly between these extremes and I often find myself greatly at odds with the extremes of these playstyles. I have zero, less than zero, interest in sitting in a pub chatting for hours on end because it is something I can (and often do) do in real life being that I'm a fairly social animal. I see no benefit in RPing something easily achievable in reality. Conversely, I -cannot- throw a fireball or run someone through w/ a sword (at least w/o some loooong jail time), so these things greatly appeal to me.

However, blasting through a dungeon at light speed I also find incredibly annoying so that side of the extreme is equally off putting to me. I'm a creature of the middle road. If you follow the Bartelby's four types of MMO players which has a great deal of cross-over with tabletop RPGs I'm the explorer / achiever type with the RP a close second. I understand OP's point however because being almost right in the middle I find the extremes a bit too much for me. What I don't think is possible is that these two types shall ever totally 'understand' one another. They have radically different drivers for their vision and the 'twain shall likely never meet. This goes along w/ what Steve said above. 'Nothing will change'. I know this to be true because there have been multiple attempts to shift the paradigm a bit on this server one way or another. It never happens and is shot down in flames rapidly in most cases. You need only go search through various threads to see evidence of this. (This is another much deeper topic)

So tl:dr; Find those who mimic your playstyle the best and hang out with them, or get frustrated at the server limitations and the somewhat rigid nature of 'the rules' and as steve said, leave for other venues. I know many people who've taken the second road including some DMs so make of that what you will. I noticed it is mostly newer players commenting on this and I think that is something else that is telling. The super old school crew have VERY specific ideas about how things need to be and they will make you aware of this, I think newer players probably have a more open minded approach hence the higher commentary.

[BDobolina]

I think these sorts of false dichotomies only serve to further ingrain some silly stereotypes about RP preferences. Clearly something as varied as roleplay preferences can not be boiled down and put into an either/or matrix of two choices.

Even saying you take a little from each category just reinforces that these categories are real in the first place. They aren't. They are a contrived choice where no decision is necessary. I feel like this is either designed to divide, or you just don't have your finger on the pulse of the server at all.

Just do what you like. Find other people that like doing it, too. Repeat.

[K'yon Oblodra]

I don't know where to start as this topic is indeed just way too vast to be easily discussed, to easily explain one's stand point and get everything said that would need to.

What I thought was, that Max had a great idea. Though the division of players in only two categories is of course in a way never going to allow us to get all these things that make out our into them, it is a nice simplification of the many different aspects that define our RP.

I like Hoihe's approach of axes at the same time I don't like the axes she sets. I think that her example will have a lot of people go, mmh I would use other categories. Like I said I like her approach but I prefer Max's because of it's simplicity.

To Dalo I wanted to say that I think getting into meaningful RP in regards to the server development will always be harder if you have more characters cause you will have trouble establishing them especially if you are already struggling to find enough time to play. I for instance liked getting in touch with your ilhara but she was almost instantly gone again which made it impossible to intertwine her any further in any stories.

Now this probably sounds like an attack but it's not, it's just me saying I'd love to get more involved with you or your character but I think that due to you having so many it will make it more difficult to establish something meaningful.

Categorising after the OP, I guess most of us would have a problem in saying I am category 2, cause that would make us the grinder, which is I think the thing Max really wanted to point at XD.

Now category 1 is easier to admit cause it's at least a certain type of RPer.

I guess we are all both and neither, I do grind at times though I think most of the people I play with that know that I am very story focused.

The stories are what makes this server so interesting for me and stories can be large and small, sometimes it might just be a relationship between two characters, a point in time where one finds out a little detail and it can be a really really minor one, about the other, while another time it could be a huge development, both are needed to create believable characters.

I'll go into Hoihe's categories now.

Action vs Social.

I kind of answered that already. Honestly I really like to have a reason to go out to adventure but it's not always possible to find the deepest meaning to the grind, sometimes it's just practicing a certain spell to gain more insight on its intricacies.

Experience/sensation vs Story

This category confuses me quite heavily, I can't really grasp it so I'll pass. I like stories but the experience shared between two characters seems like it is also part of a story if that is what we are looking to make out with this category. Sorry if I am being blunt here XD.

Dark vs Bright

This seems to be a very important topic to you. I never really think about this much to be honest, K'yon is kind of dark in a way that he works with brains and undead though I am not really sure if that is even dark cause it's just scientific in a way.

I guess really dark would be mutilating other characters? There I would think it's not a thing cause who would want to make someone else's experience a poor one? I could see something like that happen but would always exchange with the other player where he would want to take it and usually expect some kind of solution to that problem which might lead to something very bright that would possibly help a character get over one of it's flaws.

I don't know feels like a very fluid thing.

Epic vs Mundane

This feels again like a ying and yang type of thing where one can't exist without the other at least to me. I do think that the epic should be a very small part of a character's life and should always be accompanied with a lot of mundane things that need to be done in preparation for the incredible.

So I guess I'd lean a bit more to the mundane side of things but as said there have to be both.

Special cases vs slice of life

This feels a bit like the same I just answered, I certainly like to get to know details of the characters I deal with at the same time it's the same thing that can very quickly turn me off and make me run away.

This is the type of thing I really hate when it's turned into a thing where a group of people sits around listening to one person tell them all about X or Y.

I love it if such a thing happens as something very personal between only two characters cause it feels like this should be something intimate.

Now of course there are traits that can be displayed in public but even those can be amazing or annoying depending on how they a are brought to attention.

Now as a resume, I love RP and stories please come to me if you have ideas or even if you just want to get in contact with me so we can come up with stuff together.

A fair warning ahead though, K'yon is a pretty typical drow so he is not this friendly guy you'll meet like any other surfacer. I think some have already met him and I'm a way were shocked XD.

And for Zael TLDR:

I think it's super hard to categorise which is why I like Max's approach.

I think he wanted to point at the fact that group 2 is often kinda shunned though we all may sometimes grind. Maybe he also wanted us to be less pricky to those that we may find grinding and look down on them at first... If he didn't then I'll say it XD.

Lastly tried to answer Hoihe's categories and kinda struggled with them.

And at the very end I asked everyone to approach me for RP but not without a prior warning that K'yon is a very typical drow that isn't easy to converse with.

Cheers K'yon

[DaloLorn]

To Dalo I wanted to say that I think getting into meaningful RP in regards to the server development will always be harder if you have more characters cause you will have trouble establishing them especially if you are already struggling to find enough time to play. I for instance liked getting in touch with your ilhara but she was almost instantly gone again which made it impossible to intertwine her any further in any stories.

Now this probably sounds like an attack but it's not, it's just me saying I'd love to get more involved with you or your character but I think that due to you having so many it will make it more difficult to establish something meaningful.

Ehh, the problem with Ilhara is that she avoids most drow like the plague. She will grudgingly interact and even work with them if needed, but generally she prefers the company of surfacers, svirfs and people she thinks are relatively safe for her to be around. It's why she basically lives in Rockrun and virtually never ventures into Sshamath without a good reason.

At the time she met K'yon, she was investigating Renor's situation, looking to get him out from under the Zau'afins' thumbs. When he decided to do that on his own, and when K'yon's demon-hunting contract was OOCly impossible to participate in, she no longer had a pressing need to visit Sshamath. When Balthomer got himself banned, she no longer had any plots to progress, nor any interesting people to interact with. Per the priority list I mentioned in the post you responded to, that meant she could - at best - do some random grinding. Even that's not possible when the UD is almost constantly dead in the low epics, so she's just settled into a daily routine now.

Here's the thing, though: (EDIT: Massive wall of text, I'm gonna spoiler it.)

Hidden: show

I can, and historically have focused on a single character at the expense of all others. Shali's draconic shenanigans made her a lot more active than Ollie, Siril, Silia, Mainda, Hugishnak, Vichan, Fon, Mard, Kana, and Cald right up until I created Ilhara. Sure, Mainda got a little bit of scamming done, but between the disabling of the disguise system and the difficulty of getting in touch with the Bladestone Foundation, she was a non-starter. Kana's quest to become a knight made her an obvious outlier among the PCs I just listed, but eventually she was tapped out when the ORH died down.

When I made Ilhara, her activities in the UD became an overriding priority until Shali fell in love with Feylar. After that, it was usually a race to see which PC's friends/interests would come online first - somehow, even adding Amaetha to the mix didn't keep me from maintaining a comfortable balance between the three. In the time before I created Vilmar, Ilhara witnessed the disintegration of the Circle of Song, Shali and Fey came to terms with their feelings for each other, and Amaetha managed to become a citizen of Doron Amar.

Vilmar shattered the balance again (also helped by Feylar steadily dropping off the map), cheerfully pursuing his friendships with Oskod, Luniel and Emma (and occasionally just tagging along with others so he could keep up with their faster leveling rate) until Oskod and Emma were retired, and he drifted apart from Luniel. In that month or so, all other characters were put on the backburner until I started frantically leveling Lamir in anticipation of an early confrontation with some of the Sword Coast's monks (like Emma) or anyone else who figured out that there was only more evil underneath the monk's initial standoffishness and hostility. Even then, Vil's interests took precedence, and when Renor came back, Ilhara's occasional interactions with him took more time out of Lamir - but not Vilmar.

Jando was initially a dud (like so many of my pre-Ilhara PCs), so when Shali failed to make a comeback due to being too tightly bound to the now-inactive Feylar, Renor disappeared, and Mainda's fledgling friendship with Arorn and Lyra was slowly broken up by timezones and level ranges, I made Caili. She just about monopolized December and early January, trying to dodge Rakshee's countless alter-egos as she settled into the adventuring life, tried to learn how to swim from three different instructors (all of which have abandoned her to her fate ), and poured her heart and soul into dragging Elsinan away from his WDD*-mandated path towards evil. This was only occasionally punctuated by Kana finally working her way into the now-resurgent ORH (and subsequently adventuring with her fellow squires, because Aaron seems to be the only full knight they have left ) and Vilmar being commanded to investigate Amora's heritage.

Now? Caili's still working on the swimming and the questionably-effective dragonsitting (when she's not having nightmares about becoming an icicle ), Mainda has found herself some dumb muscle to skew the risk-vs-reward ratio of adventuring back to something she's comfortable with, Kana's doing squire stuff, Vilmar is digging through books, and Jando got a second wind in the form of becoming Xyri's meat shield. (A task he's quite happy with, walking stereotype that he was born as. ) Amaetha's intended return to Cormyr was interrupted by an assignment she couldn't walk away from**, and Shali's likely to come out of mothballs soon, with or without her boyfriend's approval.***

So far, the scheduling conflict between all these PCs has not been as difficult to resolve as you might think. Aside from the fact that Jando desperately needs to keep up with Xyri until the high teens or so, these are all slow-moving plots. As long as I don't skew things too much in favor of any one PC, and as long as I keep track of any milestones/events I really want to catch (for instance, Caili was going to offer to watch over Elsinan as he took his last Frostmage level, but I'm 80% sure I was asleep when that happened, and I'm 99% sure he'd have refused anyway because he's paranoid), all of these are well within my ability to manage. The players involved just don't play concurrently enough for there to be any consistent conflicts, and even when they do... they also play regularly enough that I can afford to skip a session with them once in a while.

(On another note, I'm starting to realize why my DMing record lately has been so underwhelming. The minute I had any free time to spare, I threw it at half a dozen PCs, simultaneously draining any resources I might have to DM with and causing playerside involvement with just about anyone - player or PC alike - I might have thrown random events at. )

* - White Dragon Disciple. They're all Chaotic Evil, and by this point, everyone on the Sword Coast except Caili is willing to accept that Elsinan's a ticking, everfrosty timebomb and wait for the day when they'll have to rain holy death down upon him.

** - Seriously, if I thought anyone cared enough to do that, I'd say the DA folks pulled out their chat logs of previous interactions with her and custom-wrote a plot to push all her buttons at once. With outside assistance, no less!

*** - Not that I expect she'd meet with any serious disapproval on Fey's part. It's more that they've reached a stage when it's difficult for me to independently estimate what's going on offscreen to a sufficient degree that I'd be comfortable sending her back into the world on the basis of those estimates. It's bad enough that she'd have to keep her mouth shut about where she'd been these past months, but when I don't even know if she'd want to go out without him at any given moment... I so need to talk to Smirk about that. Either drag him back in, or work out some kind of offscreen routine I could bend her activities around.

[Max Hatchet]

A)
I've changed the title of this thread to "TWO STYLES OF ROLEPLAYER RESOURCE USE" as the original title was perhaps not clear enough with what i was trying to discuss. I dont claim that there are only two styles, there are many relating to different parameters as Hoihe and K'yon have discussed. One reason ive started this is because on another thread someone said that people who would like more dungeons 'just want somewhere to grind' as if the needs for dungeons - places to adventure - are less valid. I also know i annoyed some people by questioning the need for so many guild areas and i apologise for that. (As i pointed out i have high epic characters in at least five guilds).

Many of these styles of roleplay are Subjective, i am trying to point out something that is more Objective.


B)

I think it's super hard to categorise which is why I like Max's approach.

I think he wanted to point at the fact that group 2 is often kinda shunned though we all may sometimes grind. Maybe he also wanted us to be less pricky to those that we may find grinding and look down on them at first... If he didn't then I'll say it XD.

Thanks!!

And yes K'yon is getting to the nub of one of my main points! He is even using the word 'grinding' for the activities of Type 2 people - which is exactly the mischaracterisation i am trying to highlight.

What is 'grinding' to me? TO ME grinding is going thro an area with spawns while running and NOT roleplaying or emoting. Its then going thro that area again, camping in that area etc. Do i do this? Sometimes. Sometimes i go somewhere and join a group and they are all running and not emoting and i will just go with it and not complain. If i am in a group and one person is doing that and the rest of us arent i will IC emote something like 'Hey! Slow down!' etc. I very rarely grind by choice.

In my world 'Adventuring' and 'Grinding' are not the same thing.

[K'yon Oblodra]

A)
.... One reason ive started this is because on another thread someone said that people who would like more dungeons 'just want somewhere to grind' as if the needs for dungeons - places to adventure - are less valid.

I gotta say having more dungeons gives us more options to come up with RP reasons to discover those. For K'yon it is often the magical places that attract him... I mean naturally.

B)
... And yes K'yon is getting to the nub of one of my main points! He is even using the word 'grinding' for the activities of Type 2 people - which is exactly the mischaracterisation i am trying to highlight.

What is 'grinding' to me? TO ME grinding is going thro an area with spawns while running and NOT roleplaying or emoting. Its then going thro that area again, camping in that area etc. Do i do this? Sometimes. Sometimes i go somewhere and join a group and they are all running and not emoting and i will just go with it and not complain. If i am in a group and one person is doing that and the rest of us arent i will IC emote something like 'Hey! Slow down!' etc. I very rarely grind by choice.

In my world 'Adventuring' and 'Grinding' are not the same thing.

For me interestingly I prefer grinding alone, if there are people around, I'd rather RP with them. I am the kind of guy that often tries to initiate some kind of RP during these running sessions cause I can grind by myself but if I have others around me it often kind of pains me XD.

Though it of course still happens and sometimes it's perfectly fine, my hunter type of character kind of fits into this a bit more as he is a servant kinda guy that will just do as told, for K'yon however there is usually a good reason to be "grinding" and I do try to get more RP in between cause it just feels more natural.

[gedweyignasia]

2. ADVENTURE RPERS
These people walk through dungeons and roleplay while adventuring. They don't like the Xvart area or the Wyvern very much and get bored easily if forced to go there . They don't call adventuring 'grinding' and regard it as a bit of an insult if people suggest they are 'just grinding'. Very often they are not guild members and don't use private guild areas. They would probably like more dungeons or for the dungeons to be changed or have more random encounters.

I designed Ulcaster Ruins for this sort of RP style. If players who identify with that kind of RP style have any feedback, I would gladly welcome criticism/advice. I'd like to make more such areas in the future based on player feedback.

[Steve]

Ulcasters Ruin is a FANTASTIC dungeon/Area. It is like a work of art, and personally I think it gets closest to what a tabletop adventure is like, but BGTSCC CRPG-like. Thanks, Ged!!!

But here is the rub: once you’ve done it, why do it again? It isn’t good for grinding (and lets face facts about how much of a driving factor this is!), and it isn’t even that good for treasure gain. So, the two MAJOR factors of this game besides the Great RP aspect, fall short.

So for feedback, I’d say consider how I’m a map/Area like this, or group of maps, design is added to give reason for Characters AND Players to revisit. Or, to stay longer. Or, where as much randomness can be instituted so the map isn’t learned then OOC abused, like the Minotaur’s Ruin, as example.

Comments aside, it really is a fantastic Area, and imagine how great it would be if BGTSCC had 30 areas like this, each designed around a CR level.

[Mythic Revenant]

2. ADVENTURE RPERS
These people walk through dungeons and roleplay while adventuring. They don't like the Xvart area or the Wyvern very much and get bored easily if forced to go there . They don't call adventuring 'grinding' and regard it as a bit of an insult if people suggest they are 'just grinding'. Very often they are not guild members and don't use private guild areas. They would probably like more dungeons or for the dungeons to be changed or have more random encounters.

I designed Ulcaster Ruins for this sort of RP style. If players who identify with that kind of RP style have any feedback, I would gladly welcome criticism/advice. I'd like to make more such areas in the future based on player feedback.

I’ll put it this way... Oth and Artorias have been there on MANY occasions just to RP... and I have a standing request due to Ulcasters that I hope to get approved soon.

So, yeah... that place is amazing and that library is killer. Thank you for the hard work! Solving that damn statue puzzle annoyed the ever living hell out of me haha.