About the power of PCs vs the Setting

[Steve]

So, in some practical terms that can function as guidelines for Role-Play, what does PC Power equate to NPC Power? It does not appear to be 1-to-1, and there IS mechanical limitations in place where 1 NPC stands in for 1+X NPCs (mainly Guards providing protection in civilized Areas). As well, in many Server Wide Campaigns of the past, a single mob was often crafted with mechanical power as would 10-15 mobs would be in pure D&D source book terms.

But if currently, PCs can reach max Level 30, and PCs are killing Balors, Dracoliches and Frost Giant Kings, YET, they must respect NPCs like Guards and Merchants and Dukes as if these NPCs are more powerful (>level 30), is it that we players should always consider our PCs half their Level when in relation to NPCs? Or, should we disregard Level entirely, and play off of mechanical Skills and Abilities?

Does that Epic Character Feat that shows up on our Character Sheet still mean anything, and with the Rule to “play your sheet,” can some definition be finalized here, please?

Personally, I don’t want to have to RP like my Character cannot take on NPCs or “do something” because there are OOC Limits in place. But, if I’m going to abide by Rules in place to prevent godmodding as well at times prevent actions made in-character, at least I’d like to have some clear guidelines, so that my RP is appropriate to the Setting.

Please discuss.

[Kaybrie]

Where players fall relative to NPC's fluctuates wildly depending on the circumstance of involved DM's. When there's a PvP event in their vicinity, one can assume they are many times stronger then they would be in the event of a DM issue where players are called upon to help them. Not in a literal sense, but a narrative sense. When no DM's are present the NPC's have the final, absolute strength they need to resolve any issue that might come up.

When a DM needs something resolved however, they're much weaker. One can easily say that when a DM is not around, the best of the Flaming Fist are watching over the streets of Baldur's Gate and the farmlands. When a DM needs something done, they're absent, pre-occupied or the worst of their number happen to be present.

This is how I inform my approach to present NPC's on Baldur's Gate, for the most part, sometimes making exceptions when the DM notes it.

[Rhifox]

As I see it, there's no way we're 30 ICly. 30 mechanically but 15 ICly (if not less) is the standard I play by.

As for NPCs, I just see them having as wide a range of levels as players do. Guards might be weaker, as strong, or stronger than us, while those balors/dracoliches/FGKs similarly have a range of strengths, some of them weaker than others, some of them more powerful, and so you have to take each individual encounter on its own merits rather than 'all balors are exactly this strength'. If anything, presuming they are a static strength and should always be that feels metagaming to me. Some are strong, some are not, and you don't know until you face it, just like when dealing with any character from other races.

DnD as a game is designed for PCs and most of what they deal with to largely be within the same 2-4 level range. While we don't have that mechanically due to the 30 cap, I think it's still fine to assume it is so ICly.

Does that Epic Character Feat that shows up on our Character Sheet still mean anything

As far as I'm concerned, no. Level range is typically based on 'type of adventure'. 1-5 is local village, 6-10 is a city/regional, 11-15 is kingdom/national, 16-20 is worldwide/planar, and epic is planar/godly.

RP on BG is generally in the 6-15 level range. Ergo, that's the IC level range I consider us to be at, not epic.

[yyj]

I don't think a place like the FAI has weak guards, they probably need to be quite strong to be able to live in the middle of nowhere on a supposed dangerous tradeway between two dangerous forests.

As for the rest of the setting, yes, PCs need to always be weaker than NPCs, just like in the real world there's always someone bigger, stronger, etc. that is a way to protect the setting, the town guard have to be tough enough that the only thing stopping a level one thief from stealing everything he wants and killing the rest isn't the PCs. Realistically, they should be able to solve many problems by themselves, but be wary of making them too weak or probably no towns and cities would exist anymore. Should the town guard be able to fend off twice their number of goblins, maybe with a few bugbears or so? Probably yes. It won't be easy and there may well be some losses but with good leadership they should be able to weather the storm if not defeat the attackers entirely. They should also be able to protect and defend their business.

I had this discussion on discord a few days ago and the consensus is that PCs need to be kept low power level simply because it would break the setting otherwise.

Other servers just have a lower level cap to keep the setting realistic, here they have this cap on a RP level but not on a mechanical level, Balors are CR 20. Higher than that gets closer to demipowers.

[Steve]

Considering our PCs as 1/2 actual Level seems legit, although so much stuff has “Epic” attributes to it. If all NPCs then are capable of being of greater skill/ability/power than our PCs, that is quite a...humbling “reality” for our Characters to live in.

If this was canonized into the understanding of RP on BGTSCC, I think it might actually help alleviate some awkward situations.

While the Character Sheet itself is an OOC device, it does exist to guide the Role-play. Perhaps what is difficult is relating the Power Ceiling of a PC to NPCs in any meaningful IC manner. Attain max lvl 30, then remain “stuck” below the “power level” of all those NPCs one interacts with!!? It’s an unfortunate limit, if you’d ask me.

Does it really hinder RP though? No. But it then does require a boatload of OOC concessions, which can really mess with Character concept and action.

[Rhifox]

If this was canonized into the understanding of RP on BGTSCC, I think it might actually help alleviate some awkward situations.

That would be nice, yes.

[wangxiuming]

There would be no civilization on the sword coast if PCs were considered their actual level. All the egomaniacal wizards would have leveled all the settlements across the coast.

[Blackman D]

While the Character Sheet itself is an OOC device, it does exist to guide the Role-play. Perhaps what is difficult is relating the Power Ceiling of a PC to NPCs in any meaningful IC manner. Attain max lvl 30, then remain “stuck” below the “power level” of all those NPCs one interacts with!!? It’s an unfortunate limit, if you’d ask me.

well from a mechanical standpoint

players level cap is 30; NPCs dont have a level cap, there are bosses that are about 40HD and strong mobs that are 35HD, so its not as if being 30 puts you on top of the food chain at all

players have all the abilities and whatnot granted by their builds to them in fights; most NPCs are actually stripped of abilities so there are less things that need to load when they spawn which helps reduce lag -- and as far as the 1 to 10 thing, while there may actually be more than 1 NPC somewhere, the server cant handle a lot of NPCs in one area, it will cause severe lag

and as far as guards go, you are talking about those who are likely also ex adventurers or have military like training along with the fact that they are not alone, you should not expect to be able to take on guards fairly when you are by yourself...

[Planehopper]

It seems to me that the easiest adjustment to make is to each of our individual expectations. I dont know why anything needs to be made official saying 30 is 15 or 30 is 20 or whatever the case may be.

Adjusting our expectations of what level 30 means fixes most of the situations considered here. Don't expect to be able to exert full power without DM oversight, out of respect for the persistent game (vs paper and pen), and there will be many fewer issues.

[Snarfy]

Adjusting our expectations of what level 30 means fixes most of the situations considered here. Don't expect to be able to exert full power without DM oversight, out of respect for the persistent game (vs paper and pen), and there will be many fewer issues.

+1.

I'm not even going to dip my toes into the whole mechanics/PC level end of the pool, because it just makes things convoluted.

Is my character better at some things than NPC guards? Sure, probably.
Could any of my characters give NPC guards a run for their money? Possibly, however short-lived that run might be.
Do NPC guards have any weaknesses that I can exploit? Obviously, although I can't know that unless a DM is playing them.

At the end of the day... why does it matter again? Trying to achieve some frame of reference when comparing your single PC to entire retinues of trained soldiers is pure folly, and a bit of an exercise in ego.

Chances are slim that the average player will have more than 2 or 3 encounters with DM controlled guards in their playing career. And, considering the behavior some players exhibit when they know a DM isn't controlling the guards? Well, they should probably be thankful guards aren't controlled by DM's more often.

Personally, I've always tried to hold NPC guards up to a singular standard, and that is this: they will probably mop the floor with any of my characters' buttocks.

[c2k]

So the way I see it is guards are at or aroundeither below or above the same skill level as your character. but you do have to remember there will be always more than 1 guard, especially among civilization. However many guards you think it take to put your character down, thats how many are there. And the more guards you kill in this process, the worse fate that will befall you when they eventually outnumber you.

[Dolorof]

It seems to me that the easiest adjustment to make is to each of our individual expectations. I dont know why anything needs to be made official saying 30 is 15 or 30 is 20 or whatever the case may be.

Adjusting our expectations of what level 30 means fixes most of the situations considered here. Don't expect to be able to exert full power without DM oversight, out of respect for the persistent game (vs paper and pen), and there will be many fewer issues.

This is all really, i live with the fact that my epic spells don't make me a supreme arcanist of ultimate power beyond that of any mortal. No sense in trying to make a rule out of it. Every wizard in the server open gates to bring out balors and pit fiends not to mention Solar. We have to adjust our individual expectations that's the reality.

[Steve]

So much to respond to!!!

[PCs] level cap is 30; NPCs dont have a level cap, there are bosses that are about 40HD and strong mobs that are 35HD, so its not as if being 30 puts you on top of the food chain at all

So shortly after my last post, still being uncomfortable with the "half-your-PCs-actual-Level" consideration, I was remembering how it IS that mobs—and probably NPCs as well...—actually have higher-than-30 CL on BGTSCC. And so BMD's post reconfirmed this, and thus, I am thinking that a better explanation for context is NOT that our PCs' Level (re: power/skills/abilities) is halved in relation to NPCs/Mobs, but that the NPCs/Mobs of this Setting ARE DOUBLED in power, from the Canon D&D 3.5e Rules that the Setting is founded upon.

That, to me, seems the better and "logical" way to canonize thought on the Power vs. Setting OOC interpretation, because it still allows for our Characters' Epic-ness that sits on the Character Sheet—literally—to be taken into the Role-play. The only and kinda funny part, is that NPCs/Mobs are then Double-Epic, in relation to PC Power. LOL. I think this is quirky enough to just work, both IC and OOC.

And because straight up, there are 30+ HD examples on the Server, and our PCs literally will never reach those Levels, it works as an indisputable barrier. Or, a Rule/guideline, if you will. Rules are great, right?!? Hi Moderators!!

There would be no civilization on the sword coast if PCs were considered their actual level.

You think? I mean, with Epic Powers of Good always building, and Epic Powers of Evil always destroying, you have a fundamental dynamism in the Setting. If, however, the Setting remains so dumbly static that we as Players never get to experience the rollercoaster ride, then...boo. Look, just imagine for the moment, the immense possibility of player experience and RP if Baldur's Gate—or Darkhold, Soubar, Beregost...—was destroyed, and existed on the Server in its destroyed form for a RL year. And all the RP around the rebuild, the efforts, the A through Z of possibilities around this. But unfortunately, I really do not get the feeling that this possibility is even close to being optioned, and definitely NOT by Player (PC) action. It would only be something that DMs would craft, then we Players would "have to go along with it...." And it is THIS issue, tied into the PC Power issue, that does kill off RP (more on this later).

you should not expect to be able to take on guards fairly when you are by yourself...

I totally agree. But even if you gather a group of PCs of fairly Epic powers, is it possible then?!? Doubtful. Because that would require the openness from the DM Team. And our DM Team is consistently described as overtaxed and not able to manage such types of RP efforts. Or am I wrong? The Head DMs are welcome to comment on this.

It seems to me that the easiest adjustment to make is to each of our individual expectations... Don't expect to be able to exert full power without DM oversight, out of respect for the persistent game (vs paper and pen), and there will be many fewer issues.

Is it really in the best interest of the Server to allow "individual expectations" to ride carefree in this regard? I think such a perspective sets up Players for a yuuuuge disappointment, when they realize the Setting is setup to shackle them (mostly mechanically, but also RP-wise). The problem with exercising full power only with DM oversight is, as has been promoted for some years now, the DMs lack the ability to support all Player RP, even when a large number of Players are putting in a concentrated effort. Let me be clear: I'm not interested in giving me or any other Player(s) God Powers and ability to "do what they want cause it's in the RP...." Absolutely not. What I AM interested in is not having expectations built and then shot down over and over again, which also contributes to Players leaving the Server.

I fully believe that clearer descriptions and expectations from the get go, OOC and IC, absolutely help guide Players to a better gaming experience. Sometimes, Rules/Guidelines need to be made, in order to grant situational perspective. To canonize the NPCs/Mobs should be considered IC always double the power achievements of PCs, then, we have a context to play within, that essentially puts our RP possibilities "in place." Right now, it is pretty wild west, even between DM Events, not to forget to mention the static/permanent NPCs/Mobs of the Coast.

At the end of the day... why does it matter again? Trying to achieve some frame of reference when comparing your single PC to entire retinues of trained soldiers is pure folly, and a bit of an exercise in ego.

This issue matters to all Players and their PCs when you desire to have effect on this Setting. If 1 NPC/Mob equals 2 PCs, and 10 NPCs/Mobs equals 20 PCs, simply and exactly because mechanical limitations in the Engine determine such a reference, in terms of Power (skills, abilities, feats, ...) then from and IC perspective, you can better react to the situation, one that is far more realistic in terms of Life, Death, possibility and...effort. Planning, force building, contracts, management, etc....all these things necessary for greater influence or effect AGAINST the power/forces of the Setting.

This is absolutely meaningful, and mattes a great deal, actually. Is meaningful for when we interact with the static NPCs/Mobs, and even more so when DMs drop some insane arse-kicking goblins or Orcs down on a PC or PCs, and all of a sudden you are WTF?, why are now these mobs so damn challenging, when every damn week I'm slaughtering the "same" creature so easily and confidently.

Some of my Character absolutely DO have ego driving them. And actually, often enough, egocentric RP is the fuel behind Evil PCs, if not Evil Organizations. Egotism, psychological egoism, and egocentrism are yuuge factors in RP of Character. But...in a Setting where we as Players need to throttle this RP in order to "fit" within the named limitations...that is by far in the interset of the Entire Server and Community, wouldn't you say?

However many guards you think it take to put your character down, thats how many are there.

This perception is a limitation that I would be willing to incorporate into my own personal RP of Character(s), however...it literally isn't always the case.