Language and PG13

[Planehopper]

Reminder that the forums DO in fact have a rule against profanity, and a filter to prevent it. Bypassing the filter to include profanity in your post may result in a warning accompanying a temporary suspension of posting privileges.

Thanks!

[Zkenic]

(I'd point to 'frak' from BSG as a much better example of an in-universe curse. It is elevated up and used regularly to the point it clearly becomes part of the setting's language, still used in an otherwise mature setting, existing for flavor instead of censorship).

I dont mind vulgarity, even though my characters never really swear. What drives me crazy and pulls me right out of the game (and in BSG's case, the show), is blatant replacements for vulgarity. Pretty much any four letter curse word starting with F that isn't (do-me) is obviously just trying to be (do-me) without saying it. Its about as immersion breaking as it gets for me.

Mind you, I do not mind vulgarity that fits the lore. ( think knife-ears is a good example of that.

[Ambaryerno]

(I'd point to 'frak' from BSG as a much better example of an in-universe curse. It is elevated up and used regularly to the point it clearly becomes part of the setting's language, still used in an otherwise mature setting, existing for flavor instead of censorship).

I dont mind vulgarity, even though my characters never really swear. What drives me crazy and pulls me right out of the game (and in BSG's case, the show), is blatant replacements for vulgarity. Pretty much any four letter curse word starting with F that isn't (do-me) is obviously just trying to be (do-me) without saying it. Its about as immersion breaking as it gets for me.

Mind you, I do not mind vulgarity that fits the lore. ( think knife-ears is a good example of that.

FarScape had the best conlang swearing. Not only did each culture have its own particular curse words, they even paid attention to conjugation. "Frell you, you frelling frellnick. Get Frelled."

[cosmic ray]

Replacing real obscenities for made up ones is very childish. It doesn't even work to weaken the message because it's the context in which the words are used, and not the words themselves, that matters. It's also why not even being able to cite these words when talking about them is also very childish.

We are often told, and rightly so, that real-world sensibilities and morality have no place in the Forgotten Realms if they clash with the setting, so I don't think that American puritanism should be an exception to that. It has no more a place in the Forgotten Realms than the cultural and social aspects of other real-world regions that the rest of the playerbase that isn't American may come from. It's the Forgotten Realms, not 21st century United States.

[Zkenic]

Replacing real obscenities for made up ones is very childish. It doesn't even work to weaken the message because it's the context in which the words are used, and not the words themselves, that matters. It's also why not even being able to cite these words when talking about them is also very childish.

We are often told, and rightly so, that real-world sensibilities and morality have no place in the Forgotten Realms if they clash with the setting, so I don't think that American puritanism should be an exception to that. It has no more a place in the Forgotten Realms than the cultural and social aspects of other real-world regions that the rest of the playerbase that isn't American may come from. It's the Forgotten Realms, not 21st century United States.

Hey now, my 21st century United States is full of all the sorts of debauchery antithetical to puritanism.

[AsuraKing]

Pulled straight from Elminster's Forgotten Realms:

Curses and Epithets
Like everyone else, Faerûnians cuss from time to time. Here are a few of the most popular Heart-lands profanities.
“Haularake” (hah-rake; pronounced very quickly, as if it has but two syllables) is the all-faiths, acceptable in polite society equivalent of “gods darn it all, anyway.” “Sark” (ssark, drawn-out “s”) is a more pow-erful form of “haularake,” equivalent to “gods damn it all!” “Hrast” (hur-rast) is a non-deity-specific “damn.”

“Hrammar” (hur-ram-uh) is a “hrast” equiva-lent used in the Shining South. “Naeth” (naythh, drawn-out “th”) is the equivalent of saying “dung.” “Naed” (nayd) is a stronger form of “naeth.”

“Orbal” (or-ball) is the Shining South equiva-lent of “naeth.”

“Sabruin” (sah-broo-in) is the equivalent of “— you” or “— off.”

“Tluin” (tuh-loo-in) is the most emphatic way of saying “sabruin.”

“Stlarn” (stuh-larn) or “stlarning” is a mild expletive, about equivalent to “screw,” as in “Bah! They can’t do one simple thing without stlarning up!”

“Hrasting” (hur-rast-ing) is a mild form of “stlarning,” not associated with “hrast.”

“Straek” (strrake, drawn-out “r”) means “go drown yourself, right now and painfully.”Then there are longer oaths. These are many and fanciful, but a handful see widespread use in a shortened, expletive-handy form.

“Bind me!” (long form “Bind me and tar me”) is a slightly stronger equivalent of “Weell, strike me down!”

“Dark!” (long form “Dark and empty!”) is the equivalent of saying “Damn and blast!”

“Hells!” (long form “Those of all the Nine Hells take you!”) began as the Faerûnian equiva-lent of saying “The devil take you,” but is now closer to “Hell take us all.”

“Red garters!” (long form “I’ll turn out your guts for blood red garters!”) which means, “Ho, you’re going to catch it.”

One mildly comical oath, still said in earnest by older Faerûnians, usually when astonished, is: “Happy dancing hobgoblins!” (Hobgoblins do not say this, and are not amused when they hear it.)

[cosmic ray]

Replacing real obscenities for made up ones is very childish. It doesn't even work to weaken the message because it's the context in which the words are used, and not the words themselves, that matters. It's also why not even being able to cite these words when talking about them is also very childish.

We are often told, and rightly so, that real-world sensibilities and morality have no place in the Forgotten Realms if they clash with the setting, so I don't think that American puritanism should be an exception to that. It has no more a place in the Forgotten Realms than the cultural and social aspects of other real-world regions that the rest of the playerbase that isn't American may come from. It's the Forgotten Realms, not 21st century United States.

Hey now, my 21st century United States is full of all the sorts of debauchery antithetical to puritanism.

Mind you, I don't support debauchery of any sort, but neither do I support self-appointed moral guardians censoring others, especially in roleplaying video game fantasy settings, where you should be free to roleplay even the nastiest characters.

[c2k]

I don't think vulgar language is great, but it doesn't turn me off when people use it, regardless of lore. This is especially if I can believe a certain character would say such things in conversation. I think the biggest turn off is when people RP talking about things that have no context in the Realms, like talking about other RP worlds, or even RL events that have no similarities in the FR metaverse.

[Stolcor]

Replacing real obscenities for made up ones is very childish. It doesn't even work to weaken the message because it's the context in which the words are used, and not the words themselves, that matters. It's also why not even being able to cite these words when talking about them is also very childish.

We are often told, and rightly so, that real-world sensibilities and morality have no place in the Forgotten Realms if they clash with the setting, so I don't think that American puritanism should be an exception to that. It has no more a place in the Forgotten Realms than the cultural and social aspects of other real-world regions that the rest of the playerbase that isn't American may come from. It's the Forgotten Realms, not 21st century United States.

If you want to fling sweeping insults at whole groups of people, then leave my thread alone. I'd argue that the insistence on using vulgar words is just as often a sign of immature rebelliousness as it is of not being a prude. Many people can have very mature conversations about sexuality and morally difficult situations without recourse to curse words. Refusing to use those words is not proof-positive of childishness. It is just as easily a sign of maturity in the form of self-control and linguistic facility (there are sooo many great words in English that are both more precise and more aesthetically pleasing). I'll also concede that using vulgarity is not always proof-positive of immaturity, but my point stands that you can't fling dirt the other way on that. And there are places where vulgarity makes sense, but casual conversation isn't one of them.

The fact is this server has rules and rules exist for the common good. Like it or not, real people sit at the computer behind these characters and it is their experience that determines the common good and survival of the server. This server has targeted a demographic that is interested in PG13 online game play. From what I hear, there are servers uninfected by "American puritanism" as you call it (I'm not a puritan, I like my alcohol, thank you very much) if you want that.

The server serves people, not the characters themselves (they are, at the end of the day, not real). If a given server establishes rules for the good of those people, those rules should be respected even over and above concerns about lore (which we do in plenty of places already). Hence, my question from the start has been "what is the rule?" I have not once corrected someone for this and, should the ruling not go in my favor, I won't do it in the future.

[cosmic ray]

I rarely swear in real life. We're talking about characters, though, aren't we? I am not my characters. Strange how characters that swear a little, or a lot, upset some people so much, but characters that murder or rape don't.

Refusing to use those words in real life is actually something I'll commend anyone for doing, but replacing certain obscene words with euphemisms or made-up alternate versions that do nothing to change the feelings and intentions being conveyed, since those remain exactly the same, is very childish behaviour. You're still swearing and your intention and message is the same as if you were using the "forbidden" words; you're just using different words to express the same things. Context matters and words are just words; they have no magical powers that you can avoid by using made-up synonyms. When you make up a synonym, that becomes the same obscene word if you use it in the exact same context.

This is the same way some of us adults talk with children, by using euphemisms for certain things, but then children grow up and start talking like the young people and adults they become - or at least they should. Besides, it reveals a very unhealthy way of thinking when we go as far as using euphemisms even when citing these words, that is, not using them in a sentence to refer to other people or things, but just citing them. Imagine if linguists behaved that way. Science would be a laughing stock.

This is just my opinion and it is not meant as an insult, so please don't take it that way, but things have to be called by their names in logical, rational conversation. Is the forum supposed to be an echo chamber?

[Young Werther]

I rarely swear in real life. We're talking about characters, though, aren't we? I am not my characters. Strange how characters that swear a little, or a lot, upset some people so much, but characters that murder or rape don't.

Got an example for this premise?

[zhazz]

You're still swearing and your intention and message is the same as if you were using the "forbidden" words; you're just using different words to express the same things.

To mind mind, this is the important bit in this discussion tbh.

TL;DR:
I do not advocate the use of curse words, but rather try to avoid them myself. My opinion, however, is that they are alright to use as long as: it is limited in scope: appropriate for the context of the roleplay; and taking the time to find a "safe" option would hamper the roleplay, or bring about confusion.



The most-used language on the server is Common, which is accepted as English, since the vast majority of the players on the server speak that language. This also means that when trying to convey a message, meaning, emotions, or state of mind for a character, the default go-to is English.

While many people doesn't use curse words in their daily life, many more do, oftentimes without even knowing it. This is due to some curse words becoming so ingrained in their way of speech, culture, and way of life that it no longer feels as a curse word.

Many of the proposed curse words in this discussion, which are meant to replace the more crude common-day modern English ones, may be good substitues. But they are not part of the natural language we speak. Therefore using them can often become confusing, not only for the person trying to convey something with them, since they might mistakenly use the wrong one for the context; but even more so for the recipients, who might not know what that word means.

And while it is possible to do a quick Google search on some words, such is mostly only possible for 1-on-1 roleplay. As soon as there are more characters involved than that, it is more than likely that the time taken to figure out what a "safe" curse word means for the given context will render it irrelevant for the roleplay, since the conversation has already moved on.

Some of us are quick to Google things, others are not. Keep that in mind, when using synonyms and uncommon phrases in roleplay. Sometimes it is just more convenient to use words and phrases that everyone understands, than to attempt to adjust.

[Grendunor]

They are words on a computer screen, they can't hurt you. If you're jarred by them remove yourself from the situation. God above help you if you've made it to adult life and find swearing as something that makes you so uncomfortable.

To the argument of lore appropriateness you're whole premise is based on substituting in words that the brain translates to mean the thing that makes you uncomfortable. What's more offensive, the intent or the stream of sounds?

I could say "Frazzle you in your gopher with a rusty breadknife." or the same thing with the appropriate swears. The intent is the same just one has the veneer of ridiculousness to make it more palatable.

The intent conveyed however is the same so unless you want to wholly ban crass sentiments (Which is a Frazzling bad Idea) this discussion is utterly moot and maybe if bad words on the internet in an RP setting are the worst of your problems you should count your blessings.

As to the argument about Children being exposed to swearing I would bet money unless they are home schooled they say worse to each other at school or have seen enough of it via the internet.

The server is PG-13
The themes we want to keep out are not bad language but the darker elements of the setting, like torture, rape, and other repugnant themes that many would prefer not to have impact their gaming hobby.

[Planehopper]

Or just respect the rules of the game you're playing. Anyone who has talked to me offline will attest that I curse with the best of em, but it doesnt take a 500 word essay to just follow the 'hrast'ed rules.

[Grendunor]

Or just respect the rules of the game you're playing. Anyone who has talked to me offline will attest that I curse with the best of em, but it doesnt take a 500 word essay to just follow the 'hrast'ed rules.

In regards to the above comment

PG-13 Content
All players must be 13 years of age or older to play on Baldur's Gate: The Sword Coast Chronicles.

Beyond that, though, this server, the forums, and any interactions within them should be the equivalent of PG-13/Teen at most. No violations of this rule, not even within the privacy of an inn room or guild hall. This includes, but is not limited to, excessive vulgarity, gratuitous violence/torture, and graphic/extended sexual situations.

The direct quote on server rules

ESRB Defines Teen as:
"Content is generaly suitable for ages 13 and up. May contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling and/or infrequent use of Strong Language

EBRS Defines strong Languge as:
Explicit and/or frequent use of profanity.

Source
https://www.esrb.org/ratings-guide/

The debating is over the application of the word Excessive, the Admins can determine the bounds of that given they maintain the server.