Language and PG13

[JCVD1]

(do-me) me, this shit is (do-me) me hard in the ass.

[Snarfy]

I could say "Frazzle you in your gopher with a rusty breadknife." or the same thing with the appropriate swears.

.... oh yeah? Well pike you, you sodding son of an orc, right in your gopher! Oh, yeah, I fething went there. (<3)

Happy dancing hobgoblins, stlarn this mess, I'm out of here.

[Stolcor]

They are words on a computer screen, they can't hurt you. If you're jarred by them remove yourself from the situation. God above help you if you've made it to adult life and find swearing as something that makes you so uncomfortable.

The server is PG-13
The themes we want to keep out are not bad language but the darker elements of the setting, like torture, rape, and other repugnant themes that many would prefer not to have impact their gaming hobby.

You don't get to make the determination, the admins do. And at no point did I say it was a "big deal." The problem with text on the internet is lack of tone. It's a nuisance that I'd rather not deal with when I'm relaxing and playing a game. It's worth the effort to type a few posts to investigate. But I think these posts settled that.

Or just respect the rules of the game you're playing. Anyone who has talked to me offline will attest that I curse with the best of em, but it doesnt take a 500 word essay to just follow the 'hrast'ed rules.

PG-13 Content
All players must be 13 years of age or older to play on Baldur's Gate: The Sword Coast Chronicles.

Beyond that, though, this server, the forums, and any interactions within them should be the equivalent of PG-13/Teen at most. No violations of this rule, not even within the privacy of an inn room or guild hall. This includes, but is not limited to, excessive vulgarity, gratuitous violence/torture, and graphic/extended sexual situations.

When I witness explicit curses a dozen times in a single conversation, I'd say the rules are broken, but I wanted to run this through a conversation to see if my thinking was off base. It appears it is not.

Claim the rules are dumb all you want, but multiple reasonable people - those who wrote the rule, those who enforce the rule, and others who appreciate the rule - think it is a reasonable request that people follow the rules.

And to flip it, does it really impinge so much on a person to not drop a bunch of F-bombs (or explicit sex jokes) while playing this game? Is that a necessary part of people's Roleplay? We gloss over a million details in fiction, why do those have to be included? And why on a server where it is forbidden by the ones who run it? The burden of proof is not on me. I don't need to justify myself for liking the rules and for enjoying a creative story that doesn't involve vulgarity.

And for the love of God, would you people stop implying I'm some emotionally crippled control freak? I live just fine in a world full of vulgarity, sometimes from my closest friends. I just appreciated a space with less of it and thought it worth the effort to talk about it here.

[Grendunor]

If you want to fling sweeping insults at whole groups of people, then leave my thread alone. I'd argue that the insistence on using vulgar words is just as often a sign of immature rebelliousness as it is of not being a prude. Many people can have very mature conversations about sexuality and morally difficult situations without recourse to curse words. Refusing to use those words is not proof-positive of childishness. It is just as easily a sign of maturity in the form of self-control and linguistic facility (there are sooo many great words in English that are both more precise and more aesthetically pleasing). I'll also concede that using vulgarity is not always proof-positive of immaturity, but my point stands that you can't fling dirt the other way on that. And there are places where vulgarity makes sense, but casual conversation isn't one of them.

The fact is this server has rules and rules exist for the common good. Like it or not, real people sit at the computer behind these characters and it is their experience that determines the common good and survival of the server. This server has targeted a demographic that is interested in PG13 online game play. From what I hear, there are servers uninfected by "American puritanism" as you call it (I'm not a puritan, I like my alcohol, thank you very much) if you want that.

The server serves people, not the characters themselves (they are, at the end of the day, not real). If a given server establishes rules for the good of those people, those rules should be respected even over and above concerns about lore (which we do in plenty of places already). Hence, my question from the start has been "what is the rule?" I have not once corrected someone for this and, should the ruling not go in my favor, I won't do it in the future.

Lord above this post. Well I've a free evening and feel a bit bored lets unpack it.

Many people can have very mature conversations about sexuality and morally difficult situations without recourse to curse words.

The use of the "F bomb" Generally is not an attempt to discuss sexuality. It's an expression of contempt or frustration at the situation or person. Language is a tool to convey thoughts feelings emotions or tones so yes you can have a conversation on sexuality without using swear words or adult language. Hell that is why English has euphemisms. The point is are you conveying the message effectively with the correct gravitas to the listener

It is just as easily a sign of maturity in the form of self-control and linguistic facility (there are sooo many great words in English that are both more precise and more aesthetically pleasing).

This entire point is subjective at best. Honestly I would say fear of a word or phrase reflects a lack of development as the person ascribes a morality to an action that is neither moral nor immoral. Again the latter part of the statement is subjective. I particularly enjoy the word Sassafras it is amusing to say, then again so is the polish multi purpose swearword for a lady of the night.

...there are places where vulgarity makes sense, but casual conversation isn't one of them.

Your point here about effective communication is fair. However if you find you are having trouble parsing the means other people use to communicate because you've chosen (Yes it is a choice) to take offense and let language rule you then the solution is not to decry the use of swearing as bad and wrong but to actually sit down and define what about the idea being expressed is so upsetting to you, from there you need to have the maturity to figure out if the issue that is bothering you is an actual issue or the result of a lack of meaningful conflict.

As to places where vulgarity makes sense. This matter is highly cultural and class based, among those who have poorer economic means they are often prone to higher levels of stress and what can seem as inconsequential to someone of stable means could be make or break to that person. ((If you really want a source for this I can dig through my sociology books and Pm you about it.))
To return to my point what you may perceive as excessive or poor might simply be the common vernacular for either the player, or the character they are portraying.

There are some Brits or Aussies that throw around a word beginning with C for the female reproductive organ casually while in America such a word would provoke an immediate censorship if it was TV or likely a negative reaction in casual conversation. There is a contextual awareness the reader and speaker need to be aware of in the use of their language and while speakers should be careful not to spout profanity with every other word, at the same time the reader needs to understand that the context in which the language is given is done as a deliberate choice to convey a message or point.

Arguing that people should not be allowed to convey this point is to my mind wretched, and indicative of a weak person attempting to exert power where they otherwise have none.

One can intend to offend, another has to take offense.

The server serves people, not the characters themselves (they are, at the end of the day, not real). If a given server establishes rules for the good of those people, those rules should be respected even over and above concerns about lore (which we do in plenty of places already). Hence, my question from the start has been "what is the rule?" I have not once corrected someone for this and, should the ruling not go in my favor, I won't do it in the future.

See above post

[Blame The Rogue]

a few lore-acceptable alternatives;

dark!!

dark and empty!!

and for those that worship tymora, or similar luck dieties, beshaba!!

[Stolcor]

Arguing that people should not be allowed to convey this point is to my mind wretched, and indicative of a weak person attempting to exert power where they otherwise have none.

Sure, it's not like I said multiple times that I'll defer to the rules.
It's not like I've asked repeatedly to avoid insulting me.
It's not like you're voluntarily playing on a server and have therefore agreed to abide by their rules.

Oh wait!

The meta-debate about vulgarity in the context of communication and culture is not one I'm interested in having here, much less the one about the morality of words. Neither is the analogy to scientific study relevant. All of that and your arguments about different cultures are irrelevant because this is about a specific rule on this server. I asked a question and all the answers which actually address the question and the legitimate source (the rules) have given an answer. Disagree if you want. Consider me weak if you want. It has nothing to do with my desire to control or gain power, it's simply that the rules against excessive vulgarity (and much worse things) are part of the reason I play here. I imagine I'm not alone.

But if I am, then it should be easy for you to get the admins to change the rule. I'll accept that too and reevaluate how I find my entertainment. In the meantime, quit trying to drag comparisons of our respective maturity and strength into this. I don't want to make this personal. Can we just leave it at we have different perspectives on vulgarity and all the cultural/moral baggage that may or may not imply?

For the sake of communication, there has to be some standard and I think it's fair we accept the standard set by the very platform on which we communicate, even if one or more of us finds it an imperfect standard.

[cosmic ray]

Fortunately, the server rule does allow obscene language and other crass content just as long as it's sporadically employed by each user, so it isn't a question of whether one can, but of how often one can.

I'm glad to see the pretext of making this seem to be about lore fidelity has been exposed and dropped.

It is also interesting to note how certain cuss words upset so much, whilst others aren't even seen as such. I deem expressions like "oh my god", "Jesus!", "God damn it" to be very offensive, but those who fret about using the names for body parts as cuss words don't even bat an eye about using God's name as a curse word, and most likely will consider me ridiculous for expressing this view, when they are applying the same values except to different words. Well, even though I find this sort of language extremely distasteful, do you know what I do about people using it? Nothing; I have the maturity to ignore it and the decency not to anonymously report anyone who speaks or types this way, and let me tell you that some players say these things *all the time*.

Freedom of speech isn't a one-way street.

[JCVD1]

Can please everyone speak, RP and live the way I want them to live so I can be safe from hearing and living somehting I don't like please?

[yyj]

It's not hard to have a character ICly ignore others who they dislike, maybe that would seem as detrimental to RP, but some characters are loners for a reason. Maybe nobody wants to spend time with them, for IC reasons. One of my characters really avoids people who curse a lot or are generally too aggressive/bloodthirsty and this has worked well for me, as I tend to play video games to have fun, not to see my virtual avatar insulted and serve as others punching bag.

[Planehopper]

I am not going to lock this, but I'm not giving any more warnings either. If you aren't going to participate in a productive manner, then dont post. Further trolling will be coupled with temporary loss of privileges.

[mrm3ntalist]

I really miss these threads

[Snarfy]

I really miss these threads

Hi M3nt! (... let the thread die bro, we were almost there! )

[Stolcor]

Fortunately, the server rule does allow obscene language and other crass content just as long as it's sporadically employed by each user, so it isn't a question of whether one can, but of how often one can.

I'm glad to see the pretext of making this seem to be about lore fidelity has been exposed and dropped.

It is also interesting to note how certain cuss words upset so much, whilst others aren't even seen as such. I deem expressions like "oh my god", "Jesus!", "God damn it" to be very offensive, but those who fret about using the names for body parts as cuss words don't even bat an eye about using God's name as a curse word, and most likely will consider me ridiculous for expressing this view, when they are applying the same values except to different words. Well, even though I find this sort of language extremely distasteful, do you know what I do about people using it? Nothing; I have the maturity to ignore it and the decency not to anonymously report anyone who speaks or types this way, and let me tell you that some players say these things *all the time*.

Freedom of speech isn't a one-way street.

I expressed an opinion about what seemed lore fidelity to me (I still find it out of place, but I accept not everyone does). I did not make a "pretext" that that was the primary concern. In fact, the title of the thread and my consistent message was about the rating.

Sporadic use wouldn't bother me, I was just trying to get a sense of where that "how much" line is.

Again "upset so much" is an exaggeration. A moderate nuisance, but, as you can probably see, I like a little dialogue/debate so I figured why not. A flame war, which some seemed to be fishing for, is not fun. I started to defend myself from personal attacks, but will now try not to feed that sort of trolling.

I, like you, find taking God's name in vain more offensive. But, it's not an issue in a fantasy world with fantasy gods whose names I don't care about.

I have not, nor will I ever anonymously report someone over language or probably anything else. I was simply gauging the standard (and raising awareness) before I did anything. And most likely, I'd just send a tell asking the person to tone it down. A report -with my name attached- would only be sent if it was belligerent after I asked nicely. Also, that's still extremely unlikely since I'd probably just avoid the player after they rejected my request to tone it down.

[cosmic ray]

Hidden: show

Fortunately, the server rule does allow obscene language and other crass content just as long as it's sporadically employed by each user, so it isn't a question of whether one can, but of how often one can.

I'm glad to see the pretext of making this seem to be about lore fidelity has been exposed and dropped.

It is also interesting to note how certain cuss words upset so much, whilst others aren't even seen as such. I deem expressions like "oh my god", "Jesus!", "God damn it" to be very offensive, but those who fret about using the names for body parts as cuss words don't even bat an eye about using God's name as a curse word, and most likely will consider me ridiculous for expressing this view, when they are applying the same values except to different words. Well, even though I find this sort of language extremely distasteful, do you know what I do about people using it? Nothing; I have the maturity to ignore it and the decency not to anonymously report anyone who speaks or types this way, and let me tell you that some players say these things *all the time*.

Freedom of speech isn't a one-way street.

I expressed an opinion about what seemed lore fidelity to me (I still find it out of place, but I accept not everyone does). I did not make a "pretext" that that was the primary concern. In fact, the title of the thread and my consistent message was about the rating.

Sporadic use wouldn't bother me, I was just trying to get a sense of where that "how much" line is.

Again "upset so much" is an exaggeration. A moderate nuisance, but, as you can probably see, I like a little dialogue/debate so I figured why not. A flame war, which some seemed to be fishing for, is not fun. I started to defend myself from personal attacks, but will now try not to feed that sort of trolling.

I, like you, find taking God's name in vain more offensive. But, it's not an issue in a fantasy world with fantasy gods whose names I don't care about.

I have not, nor will I ever anonymously report someone over language or probably anything else. I was simply gauging the standard (and raising awareness) before I did anything. And most likely, I'd just send a tell asking the person to tone it down. A report -with my name attached- would only be sent if it was belligerent after I asked nicely. Also, that's still extremely unlikely since I'd probably just avoid the player after they rejected my request to tone it down.

Not everything I said has to necessarily apply to you personally. I was speaking more in a general sense than anything, but, for starters, my words apply to whoever came up with the PG13 rules in the first place and, to an extent, also *some* of those who currently enforce them, especially those who go above and beyond the requirement of those rules to censor language outside of the restrictive scope of PG13, be they moderators or complainers. Beyond that, it's a matter of whether the hat fits on a case by case basis, but I don't know the opinions and thoughts of every single person around here. I have also conflated IG roleplay with OOC forum communication, which, in hindsight, may not have helped make my words as clear as they could have been, but both are subject to the server's censoring rules.

[Steve]

Best to clear this up: NWN2 had a ESRB rating of Teen when it was released. In order to stay with the Use License, Server hosts—and especially this one—decided to uphold the Teen rating for RP.

I think it is much clearer and helpful if one looks up the Teen rating, and uses THAT as reference in one’s arguments. Though the BGTSCC Server rules have PG-13 plastered about, it is actually Teen rating that should be adhered to...and a Teen rating offers much more options for Language and “strong” references in RP, than what many may assume is limited by Staff or The Rules.