Grind Suggestion Dump

[MadSeer]

Edit: Updated the post with chad's post which I thought was pretty relevant. Removed my first suggestion as the posts below are all mostly better ways to change things. After some discussion I'd personally be in favor of slower 1 to 20 leveling, but with more content (server split permitting).

I'm creating this thread so we can dump our anti-grind suggestions somewhere and see if we can get some noodles to stick to the wall.

Full disclaimer, I enjoy most of my time on BG, which is the time spent not trying to level up. I'm fully appreciative of the time put in by the admins, the DMs, quality control and content team and very much aware of the effort and time it takes to bring new things to the server.

chad878262's response

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Bit of a can of worms you opened up here Ehh, let's see how this goes...

I don't think it is a can of worms so much as a situation where improving the PvE and/or leveling experience is a complicated thing to manage and while many improvements have been made (party loot chests, dynamic quest givers, dynamic spawns, sub-boss spawns, fight-or-flight responses) there are always more things that can be done. It is just a situation where the complexity means that it is a big time sink (and thus a big ask) for a developer to want to work on very often.

So suggestions are good, but it is one of those things that you kind of throw stuff out there and don't expect much to happen. If it does, great! However, if you go in expecting a great idea will take hold and become top priority, you're setting yourselves up for disappointment.

For my part things like:

Experience gains, especially from mobs, should be significantly increased but limited by an XP cap (plus RP XP).

May sound good in theory, but in practice it's not great. Simply put there are those that log in to BGtSCC who are very RP-lite. There are those that want nothing more than to go kill monsters, loot stuff and level 1-30 by doing so. Capping how much they are allowed to gain, while allowing them to gain XP Faster would just reduce the time they spend in game, or perhaps cause them to play multiple alts. Neither is necessarily supporting their gameplay so much as it is trying to force them to do something that they simply don't enjoy (for whatever their reasons).

Someone had suggested somewhere else that experience should be awarded for character-appropriate RP activities like visiting the temple of your associated deity once a day. This kind of thing would be pretty cool for encouraging groups of people who might actually have similar RP interests to get together and would work well with a little bump in social RP experience.

This could *probably* be done in some fashion and it's a good ask. I just don't know how much work would be required to check a PC's deity and/or class against a specific area they enter (the temple of their deity). In addition, you would need to account for shrines found all over BG for like Chauntea, Silvanus, Mielikki and others which is a small, specific place within a large exterior area. It might require a fair bit of work to do it right, but with lore nodes it does make me think it could be done.

1 to 10 is already fast. Even a grind-hater like myself could get to level 10 within two or 3 days, if I tried(probably faster). 11 to 20 isn't fun, that might take me another month, but I don't want or need to level at the same pace as people putting in twice the hours that I am, nor would it make sense for players putting in half of my hours(and potentially not RP'ing at all) getting the same amount of capped XP. Or, maybe I just don't get the suggestion.

I only partially disagree with this... Having leveled a character from 1-25 in about 4 months I can say that I agree 11-20 isn't as fun as 1-10, but it is not because it takes more time. It is because a) there are approximately the same number of dungeons and exterior areas you can go to, but the dungeons are far smaller (there are no CR10-CR18 dungeons with multiple/large levels to explore) and for the most part require just once to see the whole dungeon, meaning all subsequent visits are pretty much going to go exactly as the player expects them to go. Contrast this with the first time going through the Mausoleum, the Hilltop Ruins, or the Gnoll Caves for the first time. Once you reach 21, things get a little better with Durlag's and Nashkel Mines for some decent, deep delving and exploration. However, because now you need even more XP on top of the XP / kill being lowered from 50 down to ~low 30's even there you get to know the dungeons like the back of your hand long before you are strong enough to move on to more dungeons.

I do fully agree though, that being someone who might get 10-15 hours of in game time per week TOPS I in no way think there should be some arbitrary wall that keeps someone who is playing 40 hours a week from far exceeding my gains.

Balance as in having a group of lvl 30s wiped by some cr20 ish dungeon even tho the party had a high save, high ac tank, 2 wizards to buff and dps, 2 rogues for dps and 1 cleric for healing due to the boss ignoring immunities and having ridiculous DCs on a spammable ability that ignores AC and knocks down the victim. Such killed my interest in pve and still discourages me.

Where is this CR20 dungeon that can wipe 5 level 30 characters? I want to go there!!! To my knowledge only the Troll Cave in Trollclaws and Yuan-Ti Hills are CR20 and I fail to see how either would be a threat... Especially with two CL30 wizards (or maybe 1 plus a partial/low CL wizard) and a Cleric that can buff with stuff the Yuan-Ti can't dispel. Even there, that place can be solo'd with a Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, well before 30 (though certainly not at 20, as it should be) so not seeing how a whole party gets wiped.

Repetitiveness in revisiting the dungeon multiple times to get a single level, or even worse, needing to circle around the dubgeon multiple times.

There is an nwn1 server with fun PvE. The server has NPCs handing out quests to clear certain dungeons (by passing thu certain area triggers and killing like 4-10 mobs + the boss). This quests reward nice lump sums of xp and even more if this is the first time you do them. With the first clear bonus, provided they have a party to take on harder quests, they can avoid revisiting the same dungeon twice.

Granted, that server has been given a split and is pretty damn massive. So this idea could only really work for us once we do the server split.

Atm Durlag's is the only dungeon iirc that gives good xp for solving its puzzles and clearing its challenges (I think like 7k xp for challenge + boss?)

I love this and certainly hope it is something a dev picks up on after the split to start adding various dynamic quests for different CR Dungeons. Personally I would avoid such things for 1-10 because those levels are already too fast for the content available, but once you hit 11 more dungeons (or expanding on existing ones to make them go deeper) and adding quest givers associated to those dungeons (or puzzles like durlag's etc.) would be fantastic. Great suggestion.

Some of this would be solved right now by increasing XP gains, but I'm really hoping once the server split is worked out, having the space to expand will be the real solution.

I agree but will expand a bit. It used to be said that leveling 1-30 took a minimum of 6 or 7 months with the average being more like 9-12. Now it can be done in less than 3 months by a dedicated grinder or anyone that plays a lot of hours with the average (guesstimating here) probably being closer to 5-6 months. Faster leveling doesn't solve for the root problem of unsatisfying PvE, it just expedites your trip to 30 where XP gains cease to be one of your carrots and all you are left with is player RP, looting to hope for an uber drop, or hunting for DM attention/events. In the end, the answer is to provide for an engaging PvE from 1-30 which simply put can only be done by adding a *LOT* more content. This not only requires more space, but skilled volunteers to fill it.

I won't comment on what DM's should or should not do, but I will say that I have always heard from those who were here before me that in the end BG tries to support as many varied play styles as possible... Right or wrong is in the eye of the beholder, but I will always try to avoid negatively impacting a style even if it is one I do not personally find fun or engaging.

[narcaleptic]

Grinding is a pain at times, I can understand that. Me personally being a big role player id like to see rp enhanced more as a personal opinion. Bring more people to the rp scene by making it a more efficient way to level.

[Blackbird]

Someone had suggested somewhere else that experience should be awarded for character-appropriate RP activities like visiting the temple of your associated deity once a day. This kind of thing would be pretty cool for encouraging groups of people who might actually have similar RP interests to get together and would work well with a little bump in social RP experience.

[SpookySkeleton]

I am new to the server and yes, I agree that it is pretty daunting just how many things I need to kill before I reach a certain level. This is exacerbated if I dont have a group, since dying could set me back an entire run through a dungeon. I like the suggestions above to add more XP for RP, but its a bit subjective so I understand why those systems aren't in place yet. I have yet to take part in a DM run event since I just hit lvl 10, so maybe there is RP rewards there?

Regarding upping XP gain, that would be awesome. I think a "weekly cap" would make sense to keep people in line, but maybe hard to code? also it would discourage characters who mainly RP currently for XP from logging in, so maybe keep that separate.

[Snarfy]

Bit of a can of worms you opened up here Ehh, let's see how this goes...

I doubt I'm the only one to look at the leveling experience on BG in absolute horror. Although experience gain has overall improved over the last several years, we're still running around in circles poking blue men and big birds for an unreasonable amount of time to get anywhere.

I personally don't find leveling to be that difficult, especially from level 1 to 20, and I abhor grinding. Full on hate it, in fact. If I'm within a couple thousand XP to level, I might suck it up and grind, but even then... it just makes me want to groin-punch myself. Fishing is the only thing I hate more. That being said, I'm a serial quest'er, which others find horrible, so it's really a preference thing. If others enjoy grinding, then I say they are welcome to it, it doesn't really affect me, until grind-centric RP rears it's ugly head (IE: "Anyone want to go hunting xvarts? I want some gold to buy that new sword.").

From level 20 to 30 is a whole other matter, and I agree that it is horrific. The only way I can usually manage to level through the epics is via RP, and questing. But that suits me fine. I'm not in the "rushing to 30" camp, despite that I have 4 level 30's, and 3 others who are almost there.

... something like a weekly experience cap can be implemented to respect that timeframe and basically allow players to level up at the same pace as they do now, but without killing 300 Wyverns for one level.

I have my doubts as to how this could be mechanically implemented. I have even more doubts as to how this would be fair... if Player A spends 30 hours a week role-playing and runs into a cap, how is Player B entitled to the same amount of capped XP for logging on for, say, 15 hours a week and spending 5 hours each on grinding, RP, and quests? The current system rewards everyone universally, and equally, based on the amount of time they log in and RP/grind/quest/fish. Experience caps are a slippery slope, and I am of the mindset that everyone is entitled to gaining XP by whatever method they chose.

Players would be less inclined to hit 30 before starting any kind of roleplay and there would be more room for interesting dungeons like Ulcaster's instead of grinding arenas.

There is always going to be an inclination for certain player types to hit level 30 fast, and with or without RP, cap or no. This is just the way it is. I've seen players get their characters to level 30 within a month, but... if that's what players want to do, meh? Who am I to try and tell them to slow down? We have to factor in that some players have a vast understanding of mechanics and leveling, but at the same time they might also be wonderful roleplayers.

I think a fast progression from level 1-10, a medium progression to 20 then a slower one to reach 30 would make for a more engaging experience and bring a wider variety of PCs. I believe this also accommodates players with limited spare time, which is, imo, a pretty important thing to consider.

1 to 10 is already fast. Even a grind-hater like myself could get to level 10 within two or 3 days, if I tried(probably faster). 11 to 20 isn't fun, that might take me another month, but I don't want or need to level at the same pace as people putting in twice the hours that I am, nor would it make sense for players putting in half of my hours(and potentially not RP'ing at all) getting the same amount of capped XP. Or, maybe I just don't get the suggestion.

[Hoihe]

My biggest lament with PvE are balance and repetitivness.

Balance as in having a group of lvl 30s wiped by some cr20 ish dungeon even tho the party had a high save, high ac tank, 2 wizards to buff and dps, 2 rogues for dps and 1 cleric for healing due to the boss ignoring immunities and having ridiculous DCs on a spammable ability that ignores AC and knocks down the victim. Such killed my interest in pve and still discourages me.

Repetitiveness in revisiting the dungeon multiple times to get a single level, or even worse, needing to circle around the dubgeon multiple times.

There is an nwn1 server with fun PvE. The server has NPCs handing out quests to clear certain dungeons (by passing thu certain area triggers and killing like 4-10 mobs + the boss). This quests reward nice lump sums of xp and even more if this is the first time you do them. With the first clear bonus, provided they have a party to take on harder quests, they can avoid revisiting the same dungeon twice.

Granted, that server has been given a split and is pretty damn massive. So this idea could only really work for us once we do the server split.

Atm Durlag's is the only dungeon iirc that gives good xp for solving its puzzles and clearing its challenges (I think like 7k xp for challenge + boss?)

[Blackbird]

11 to 20 isn't fun

I've run about 5 alts from ~12-17 in the last month (because I have a problem) and I will completely agree with this. It's not even the grind necessarily as it is the areas you can grind in themselves. Things start to feel a little lackluster because you get trapped in circle grinds like Thundar's Ride or relatively linear dungeons like the gnoll or orc caves. Minotaurs are fun, but really not for grinding unless you memorize the doors. The ant burrow is great (!), but feels neglected. The hag cave is super small and the troll cave by Candlekeep is equally kind of boring. If you look at the dungeons you can crawl around 10 and below, you get really cool multi-level stuff like the Chionthar goblin ruins/cabin, Hilltop and that really nice mausoleum dungeon. Even the sewers are kind of neat. It feels like it doesn't really open up again until you can start to hit the Haunted House and then if you're the sneaky stabby sort, that's off limits.

Some of this would be solved right now by increasing XP gains, but I'm really hoping once the server split is worked out, having the space to expand will be the real solution.

[Agog_Fr]

Making grinding easier would only decrease the time between level 1 and level 30.

The high level mill would run faster, but it would not add RP.

In my opinion, the only way to add RP would be to implement a DM-controlled Pass Level system.

Only then could Grinding be facilitated, since it would only secondarily condition access to the higher levels.

[Hoihe]

Making grinding easier would only decrease the time between level 1 and level 30.

The high level mill would run faster, but it would not add RP.

In my opinion, the only way to add RP would be to implement a DM-controlled Pass Level system.

Only then could Grinding be facilitated, since it would only secondarily condition access to the higher levels.

DMs should not have any right to arbitrate such. DMs should stick to making NPCs do stuff rather than passing judgement on players' RP.

All we need is make sure PvE is properly varied, allowing people to avoid repeating the same dungeon the 100th time.

[Thaelis]

I agree that leveling to 30 needs some kind of basic "minimum time". Maybe it's just me but when I meet a level 3 and then they are suddenly level 25-30 three weeks later that somewhat stretches credibility, even for a fantasy world.

More XP per kill would be fine, so long as there was a daily/weekly cap.

DMs should not have any right to arbitrate such. DMs should stick to making NPCs do stuff rather than passing judgement on players' RP.

Agreed. On a certain other server I played on it was DM-only RP and that sucked big time. Being better at the English language meant you leveled up 10x faster than others.

Someone had suggested somewhere else that experience should be awarded for character-appropriate RP activities like visiting the temple of your associated deity once a day. This kind of thing would be pretty cool for encouraging groups of people who might actually have similar RP interests to get together and would work well with a little bump in social RP experience.

That's a very cool idea!

Having said that, the shrine of my deity is off limits since it's in a guild area and they don't allow non-guild members in :/

[chad878262]

Bit of a can of worms you opened up here Ehh, let's see how this goes...

I don't think it is a can of worms so much as a situation where improving the PvE and/or leveling experience is a complicated thing to manage and while many improvements have been made (party loot chests, dynamic quest givers, dynamic spawns, sub-boss spawns, fight-or-flight responses) there are always more things that can be done. It is just a situation where the complexity means that it is a big time sink (and thus a big ask) for a developer to want to work on very often.

So suggestions are good, but it is one of those things that you kind of throw stuff out there and don't expect much to happen. If it does, great! However, if you go in expecting a great idea will take hold and become top priority, you're setting yourselves up for disappointment.

For my part things like:

Experience gains, especially from mobs, should be significantly increased but limited by an XP cap (plus RP XP).

May sound good in theory, but in practice it's not great. Simply put there are those that log in to BGtSCC who are very RP-lite. There are those that want nothing more than to go kill monsters, loot stuff and level 1-30 by doing so. Capping how much they are allowed to gain, while allowing them to gain XP Faster would just reduce the time they spend in game, or perhaps cause them to play multiple alts. Neither is necessarily supporting their gameplay so much as it is trying to force them to do something that they simply don't enjoy (for whatever their reasons).

Someone had suggested somewhere else that experience should be awarded for character-appropriate RP activities like visiting the temple of your associated deity once a day. This kind of thing would be pretty cool for encouraging groups of people who might actually have similar RP interests to get together and would work well with a little bump in social RP experience.

This could *probably* be done in some fashion and it's a good ask. I just don't know how much work would be required to check a PC's deity and/or class against a specific area they enter (the temple of their deity). In addition, you would need to account for shrines found all over BG for like Chauntea, Silvanus, Mielikki and others which is a small, specific place within a large exterior area. It might require a fair bit of work to do it right, but with lore nodes it does make me think it could be done.

1 to 10 is already fast. Even a grind-hater like myself could get to level 10 within two or 3 days, if I tried(probably faster). 11 to 20 isn't fun, that might take me another month, but I don't want or need to level at the same pace as people putting in twice the hours that I am, nor would it make sense for players putting in half of my hours(and potentially not RP'ing at all) getting the same amount of capped XP. Or, maybe I just don't get the suggestion.

I only partially disagree with this... Having leveled a character from 1-25 in about 4 months I can say that I agree 11-20 isn't as fun as 1-10, but it is not because it takes more time. It is because a) there are approximately the same number of dungeons and exterior areas you can go to, but the dungeons are far smaller (there are no CR10-CR18 dungeons with multiple/large levels to explore) and for the most part require just once to see the whole dungeon, meaning all subsequent visits are pretty much going to go exactly as the player expects them to go. Contrast this with the first time going through the Mausoleum, the Hilltop Ruins, or the Gnoll Caves for the first time. Once you reach 21, things get a little better with Durlag's and Nashkel Mines for some decent, deep delving and exploration. However, because now you need even more XP on top of the XP / kill being lowered from 50 down to ~low 30's even there you get to know the dungeons like the back of your hand long before you are strong enough to move on to more dungeons.

I do fully agree though, that being someone who might get 10-15 hours of in game time per week TOPS I in no way think there should be some arbitrary wall that keeps someone who is playing 40 hours a week from far exceeding my gains.

Balance as in having a group of lvl 30s wiped by some cr20 ish dungeon even tho the party had a high save, high ac tank, 2 wizards to buff and dps, 2 rogues for dps and 1 cleric for healing due to the boss ignoring immunities and having ridiculous DCs on a spammable ability that ignores AC and knocks down the victim. Such killed my interest in pve and still discourages me.

Where is this CR20 dungeon that can wipe 5 level 30 characters? I want to go there!!! To my knowledge only the Troll Cave in Trollclaws and Yuan-Ti Hills are CR20 and I fail to see how either would be a threat... Especially with two CL30 wizards (or maybe 1 plus a partial/low CL wizard) and a Cleric that can buff with stuff the Yuan-Ti can't dispel. Even there, that place can be solo'd with a Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, well before 30 (though certainly not at 20, as it should be) so not seeing how a whole party gets wiped.

Repetitiveness in revisiting the dungeon multiple times to get a single level, or even worse, needing to circle around the dubgeon multiple times.

There is an nwn1 server with fun PvE. The server has NPCs handing out quests to clear certain dungeons (by passing thu certain area triggers and killing like 4-10 mobs + the boss). This quests reward nice lump sums of xp and even more if this is the first time you do them. With the first clear bonus, provided they have a party to take on harder quests, they can avoid revisiting the same dungeon twice.

Granted, that server has been given a split and is pretty damn massive. So this idea could only really work for us once we do the server split.

Atm Durlag's is the only dungeon iirc that gives good xp for solving its puzzles and clearing its challenges (I think like 7k xp for challenge + boss?)

I love this and certainly hope it is something a dev picks up on after the split to start adding various dynamic quests for different CR Dungeons. Personally I would avoid such things for 1-10 because those levels are already too fast for the content available, but once you hit 11 more dungeons (or expanding on existing ones to make them go deeper) and adding quest givers associated to those dungeons (or puzzles like durlag's etc.) would be fantastic. Great suggestion.

Some of this would be solved right now by increasing XP gains, but I'm really hoping once the server split is worked out, having the space to expand will be the real solution.

I agree but will expand a bit. It used to be said that leveling 1-30 took a minimum of 6 or 7 months with the average being more like 9-12. Now it can be done in less than 3 months by a dedicated grinder or anyone that plays a lot of hours with the average (guesstimating here) probably being closer to 5-6 months. Faster leveling doesn't solve for the root problem of unsatisfying PvE, it just expedites your trip to 30 where XP gains cease to be one of your carrots and all you are left with is player RP, looting to hope for an uber drop, or hunting for DM attention/events. In the end, the answer is to provide for an engaging PvE from 1-30 which simply put can only be done by adding a *LOT* more content. This not only requires more space, but skilled volunteers to fill it.

I won't comment on what DM's should or should not do, but I will say that I have always heard from those who were here before me that in the end BG tries to support as many varied play styles as possible... Right or wrong is in the eye of the beholder, but I will always try to avoid negatively impacting a style even if it is one I do not personally find fun or engaging.

[bharring]

I haven't had many interactions with DMs or their events. But the thought that occurred as to me is perhaps they should be fairly aggressive with giving XP, including for events they had nothing to do with.

For instance, Netanya threw a dinner party. While I doubt she's not 30, if she weren't and a DM noticed it, could the DM give her a large amount of XP for the RP?

What I'm getting at is can DMs hand out XP for good RP and adventure?

Obviously it'd be uneven. DMs cant watch every character in everything they do. I dont even know how much they see.

All that said, RPing at the campfire gives a surprising amount of XP. Not as much as grinding, but enough to feel like I'm advancing without grinding.

[chad878262]

I haven't had many interactions with DMs or their events. But the thought that occurred as to me is perhaps they should be fairly aggressive with giving XP, including for events they had nothing to do with.

For instance, Netanya threw a dinner party. While I doubt she's not 30, if she weren't and a DM noticed it, could the DM give her a large amount of XP for the RP?

What I'm getting at is can DMs hand out XP for good RP and adventure?

Obviously it'd be uneven. DMs cant watch every character in everything they do. I dont even know how much they see.

All that said, RPing at the campfire gives a surprising amount of XP. Not as much as grinding, but enough to feel like I'm advancing without grinding.

This is what many, perhaps even most or all (at least to some extent) prefer to do. They look around the server and find players that are spending time RP'ing (not loot running or circle grinding) and they look to participate/add flavor to the world through use of NPC's and environmental interactions with the players. This could be by having an NPC come in to the dinner party and provide a juicy rumor for the PCs to begin discussing and maybe planning out how they can find out more about the rumor or allowing an adventuring party to find some item that they can investigate and lead to a unique adventure.

In either case, DMs award gold and XP for such roleplay and (IMO) it is very generous in terms of reward vs. time spent. The issue (again IMO) has never been DMs creativity in supporting IC roleplay, it has always (and will always) be a situation where DMs have too many responsibilities completely unrelated to the fun parts (but still very necessary such as fixing broken characters, supporting player individual requests that may or may not engage larger groups, playing arbiter to player disputes, pvp saltiness, whatever). This means that with the number of DMs we have, there is just not a whole lot of time spent in game doing random, quick-hit things that bring the world to life. When it happens, its fantastic and often even a 20 minute mini-event or encounter can lead to HOURS of player to player RP... It's just not something that players can expect to happen very often nor rely on as a part of their experience (depending on time zone etc.).

[Steve]

All PCs start at Level 30. Dying puts you back to Level 29 every time.

All Areas are “upgraded” to CR29+ (upwards to max CR 40...you know, for the challenge).

This way, we’d all spend more time with Role-play, and within role-play we’d have a plethora of Areas to adventure in for loot (and the general fun of killing mobs(lol)).

Some Areas would be set to CR 40 for a constant group challenge, and always with a decent Risk since if your PC is Fugued, that’s a delevel to 29. So Solo-ers beware!

Oh yeah, resurrection spells now cost 1 Diamond and 30,000 gp per cast.

[JIŘÍ]

All my companions are level 20+

When they play, they do actual stuff and /or i spend time meeting with them.


Meanwhile my PC keeps dieing when i try to hike my levels up. Not funny

And idea i should spend tripple time more in UD grinding spots, killing 10 000 goblins / duergars instead of 2 000, really scares me.