Setting immersion and...things

[Hoihe]

Send them my way, I eat that stuff up.

As for me, in the last three-four years every event I've been involved in has been some variation of the things I listed. Even so far as when I deliberately threw a character up into a perma event I was still handed the choice on whether or not she died at the end.

And the choice should be the player's and the player's only.

Alas, some DMs do not leave the choice of scarring, of mutilation, of disfigurement of being cursed in a way that leaves you exiled from your home due to shadows constantly showing up, of mind-break, of crippling disease up to the player. I've had characters I loved interacting with become a slog to RP with, or have the RP I had going with them utterly changed into something the opposite of enjoyable. Those should also be a choice that the player, and only the player can decide if those should affect their PC, and how long such effects should linger.

Death is part of the setting like it or not. Yes there is resurrection, but still, our current DMs do a lot of hard work and these comments are a disservice to them, everyone has a different playstyle and it should be respected because we are simply different people. DMs dont force permadeath , but RP should have consecuences, otherwise things are boring and get stale.

"No sane person commits the resources to make relationships with people who might disappear at any moment"
This is literally what life is, people come and go all the time, everywhere, loss makes you stronger don't be afraid of living.

The server was more enjoyable when we've had DMs running plots where you didn't end up with cases like being clawed by a werewolf to protect a child and then be told no healing magic fixes it. Or be forced to participate in a permarisk event for daring to have a guild-hall.

And (do-me) life with a rusty nail. If not for the handful of people who I can rely on not to disappear for no reason, I would have chosen to dance with a train after so many people just disappeared for no reason.

Why in the name of whatever entity exists would I seek to simulate that shitlery somewhere that has the magic and tools to rectify the feas and worries?

The very appeal of Forgotten Realms is:

A) Gods actually care for their followers, and afterlife is pretty swell provided you choose a god to worship who suits you, and are able to follow their moral code. Contrary to team grimderp trying to push "you get your memories wiped in afterlife", FR is not that. They can go back to Dragonlance, Eberron or Greyhawk.

B) A level 7 cleric has magic capable of making the best hospital on this shitty useless Earth look like a drunken barber trying to do surgery.
Shitty earth and the meatsacks we're given? Get shoved by a coworker due to his carelessness at work, get your arm pressed against hot metal. Boom, permanent scar you can't get rid of. FR? Cast Cure critical wounds and it'll just be a bad memory. Cosmetic surgeons can fix it on Earth, but they're beyond the ability to afford for 99% of the world.

Driver falls asleep behind the wheel and crashes into you while you're waiting at the pedestrian crossing, following all rules, living a moral life? Boom, paralyzed from waist down, stricken with chronic pain. Not even the best damn surgeon can fix the nerve damage, and you get addicted to opioids just to be able to function.

FR? Boulder falls on your lower body, shattering your pelvis and spine. Cast Cure Critical Wounds and you're good as new. If there's lingering pain, follow up with Ease Pain. If you suffered nerve damage? Restoration. Boom. This is where FR (do-me) shines. A level 7 cleric, casting spells that don't cost a single rare component, can fix what the best surgeons on the shitty pile of smelling crap we are forced to live on can't.

[Steve]

This is where FR (do-me) shines. A level 7 cleric, casting spells that don't cost a single rare component, can fix what the best surgeons on the (p00pie) pile of smelling crap we are forced to live on can't.

Mechanically, yes.

But what doesn’t make sense is the 24/7 temple service in every town that is afforded by every adventurer with a billion gold coins.

Even adventurers shouldn’t be as common as it is on the BGTSCC version of FR.

you simply can’t compare RL with FR.

[Hoihe]

This is where FR (do-me) shines. A level 7 cleric, casting spells that don't cost a single rare component, can fix what the best surgeons on the (p00pie) pile of smelling crap we are forced to live on can't.

Mechanically, yes.

But what doesn’t make sense is the 24/7 temple service in every town that is afforded by every adventurer with a billion gold coins.

Even adventurers shouldn’t be as common as it is on the BGTSCC version of FR.

you simply can’t compare RL with FR.

FR is a (do-me) utopia compared to the shithole our lovely meatsack-filled ball of dirt is, yes.

[Planehopper]

Friendly reminder - if you have an issue with a DM, it needs to be addressed via PMs. Speaking in generalized scenarios is ok, but if any of you refer to events that can be identified, it clearly is against our agreed upon rules. I do not want this topic to be derailed by hyperbolic soapboxes, tilting at windmills, and otherwise flogging long-dead horses.

This thread is to discuss ways to enhance immersion. Players should feel free to express themselves to that end, while maintaining decorum of the forums.

If you have an issue with me saying this, it needs to be sent in PMs.

[DaloLorn]

This is where FR (do-me) shines. A level 7 cleric, casting spells that don't cost a single rare component, can fix what the best surgeons on the (p00pie) pile of smelling crap we are forced to live on can't.

But what doesn’t make sense is the 24/7 temple service in every town that is afforded by every adventurer with a billion gold coins.

Even adventurers shouldn’t be as common as it is on the BGTSCC version of FR.

This. So much this.

[Hoihe]

This is where FR (do-me) shines. A level 7 cleric, casting spells that don't cost a single rare component, can fix what the best surgeons on the (p00pie) pile of smelling crap we are forced to live on can't.

But what doesn’t make sense is the 24/7 temple service in every town that is afforded by every adventurer with a billion gold coins.

Even adventurers shouldn’t be as common as it is on the BGTSCC version of FR.

This. So much this.

Metropolises have level 8 spells as an available service. BG is a metropolis. By just PhB alone, it has Regenerate. Gr. Restoration and Heal available on demand.

BG has had a saint of Ilmater live there a while. BG also had Ilmater posses one of their clergy. The Halls of Beauty have canon level 15 clerics in good numbers. Doron Amar has a retired adventurer cleric with level 9 spells.

Kivas Ulbright of CK is fairly high level as well. Likewise for the temple of lathander in Beregost.

The temple of Helm in Nashkel had a literal avatar of Helm show up. It may be a small village, but the sheer importance of the place due to being somewhere the avatar visited draws clerics aplenty. When I was still on the DM team, I explicitly remember it being clearly stated that pilgrims visit there a lot, and one of my first events was with the player church of helm doing exactly that - escorting pilgrims there.

What was this about availability and common-ness of healing?

Vast majority of healing spells don't even have components. They just use a divine focus which is reusable. Tymora by canon has her church offer services to anyone except for explicit enemies of their faith.

[Steve]

... on demand.

Not really Forgotten Realms vernacular.

There is no RP involved currently, when utilizing temple NPCs for healing (whatever type you think appropriate). Literally, a necromancer could walk into Lathenders Temple and get resurrected.

This what I mean about failure in setting immersion...along with all the other things.

Hoihe, I know you mean well, but your own experiences, good or bad that they are, are YOUR EXPERIENCES, and not that of others. So please stop painting the Server with a wide and loaded brush, when instead you should work out your grievances directly with those that "harmed" you, and if not worked out directly, take it up the ladder. And, if you're now thinking to respond with something along the lines of "But the HDMs are just as guilty....xyz," then you are SOL, unless willing to sit back, take another look at things, be open minded, and deal. Please.

[Ariella]

While you are right and technically you can heal almost anything with magic. Greater restoration can even cure mental diseases. The availability is questionable when there is eighty to a hundred thousand people. It also actually costs XP you have to give of your life force for that kind of restorative power. And while we don't have it here lore wise raise dead normally carries a loss of level.

At the end of the day this is a game and it should be an enjoyable experience for everyone. If people want to RP scars and such you should respect that choice and not try to define their character. If a DM wants to scar your character is always better to have that discussion before hand in the terms of a warning "If you do this action then there will be consequences" I can't speak for recently but in the past that has been my experience with the DM team.

Lastly there are actually things in Forgotten realms that you cannot heal. From Stat damage to physical wounds but they require special monsters or items.

[Diamore]

Catching up on the last few pages I glossed over.

Metropolises have level 8 spells as an available service. BG is a metropolis. By just PhB alone, it has Regenerate. Gr. Restoration and Heal available on demand.

That is the case for Pathfinder, I cannot find a specific spell level/city size comparison chart in my dnd phb though. Similarly official healing services are kept general in the setting, although it does point out the associated costs for all services available based on level/requirements.

More importantly though;

I wish more sadistic DM's would notice me and drag my characters through the mud...

Our current DMs are practically that.
...

And

Alas, some DMs do not leave the choice of scarring, of mutilation, of disfigurement of being cursed in a way that leaves you exiled from your home ...

I've never encountered anything like this. What few people I know have encountered this, did so of their own volition because that was their roleplay. I have to echo Steve here.

So please stop painting the Server with a wide and loaded brush, when instead you should work out your grievances directly with those that "harmed" you, and if not worked out directly, take it up the ladder.

For bosses, one could do this -
1) After you get them to 0 HP, they are (cut-scene paralyzed).
2) They then drop their gold. Any player in the same party as the person who dealt the finishing blow will get the gold divided among themselves.
3) The boss is paralyzed for 5 minutes, long enough time for the players to loot any chests and RP a frantic escape.
4) The boss chests (all the chests in the boss's "arena") will all be locked until the boss is paralyzed, at which time they become unlocked.
5) After the paralyze wears off, the boss comes back at 100% health.

Not sure more mechanical implementation would really help with immersion. This would just ramp it up with things like "my character would pursue them", "why can't we cast dimension lock?" etc. Also the paralysis/cinematic effect would just layer more immersion breaking questions/situations, "he seems to be frightened with fear!"

1. There is already a Permadeath Mechanhc in place...

All the permanent/struggle mechanics do is just push players away and un-immersively penalise players. Letting the player run it however they feel best suites their rp makes far more sense as Steve suggests.

The server was more enjoyable when we've had DMs running plots where you didn't end up with cases like being clawed by a werewolf to protect a child and then be told no healing magic fixes it. Or be forced to participate in a permarisk event for daring to have a guild-hall.
...
The very appeal of Forgotten Realms is:

A) Gods actually care for their followers, and afterlife is pretty swell provided you choose a god to worship who suits you, and are able to follow their moral code. Contrary to team grimderp trying to push "you get your memories wiped in afterlife", FR is not that. They can go back to Dragonlance, Eberron or Greyhawk.

B) A level 7 cleric has magic capable of making the best hospital on this (p00pie) useless Earth look like a drunken barber trying to do surgery.
(p00pie) earth and the meatsacks we're given? Get shoved by a coworker due to his carelessness at work, get your arm pressed against hot metal. Boom, permanent scar you can't get rid of. FR? Cast Cure critical wounds and it'll just be a bad memory. Cosmetic surgeons can fix it on Earth, but they're beyond the ability to afford for 99% of the world.

Your interactions with DMs are governed by you. "Forced to participate" isn't a thing. Having "permarisk"(?) result from a failure in an event or campaign is normal. As in, it's almost a requirement for an adventure. It's the difference between Frodo delivering the ring to Mount Doom, and Frodo going on a hiking trip with some friends.

Also as mentioned previously;
A) Gods can have their followers souls stolen, minds wiped or simply lost. The hells are filled with people that weren't expecting to be there and it's worse than ceasing to exist.
B) Various curses are incapable of being removed through prayers and normal magic. A very basic example of how Faerun has comparable supernatural ailments that are equally problematic, impairing and difficult to resolve.

[Kitunenotsume]

As a tabletop GM myself, I am well aware that various players have strongly different motivations for playing an RPG in the first place. It is my suspicion that what an individual finds most immersion breaking is likely something that opposes that motivation for playing, so I think it relevant to disclose mine.
Some game for escapism, or for coping through issues, or for an area to feel strong or in-control.
My personal motivation is a shared space for counterfactual exploration, for exploring a world that could be and extrapolating the outcome.

As a result, I have found that my greatest immersion breaker is a lack of consistent consequence for decisions. As it stands, many consequences, such as travel time, economics, poor social manner, injuries, discrimination, and death are all elective consequences: they are by default not a concern, and avoiding them is not noteworthy. Instead, when something as trivial as a character with 6 Cha can be bypassed with a thesaurus, a challenge to PC's most deeply held beliefs can be placated with a handwave, or the hundreds of miles between cities skipped by a brief stroll, it trivializes someone else's investment in avoiding that pitfall.
Why not have a dump-stat unless there is a tangible penalty? Why be concerned about Domain restrictions if you can finagle whatever god permits your chosen combo since no one can hear you pray to a dark power for a simple healing? What is the significance of of escaping death if it's just a revolving-door-afterlife with a token fee?

These are all consequences, but they are not applied equitably.
A Dex-dump-stat is my preferred, because it is just as applicable to most encounters as whaever my shoehorned max is. Charisma is the classic almost explicitly because unless a DM calls it out specifically, most PCs can go their entire career without a Cha-check balancing the scales of their fate. A similar reasoning can be applied to most of my examples - namely, unless the PC or DM personally decides to make it significant, the drawback functionally doesn't exist. Each system I have seen that permits character flaws for mechanical advantage strongly encourage using flaws that directly impact the character's chosen role, but it is in the application that actually matters.


This isn't to say I am an advocate of arbitrary penalties. On the contrary, I am find consequences without cause to be just as concerning as causes without consequence. Rather, I support the idea that decisions by a character should have a lasting and understandable impact on the situation, and the situation vis-à-vis the character. As an example, I have enjoyed previous NWN2 servers with accumulative death mechanics - where you had to be a real bonehead to perm, but it was a consequence of being impatient; taking the time to recover between each reduced the risk to none, while sequential deaths increased the risk. Having a unidirectional impact, or a purely positive or negative impact is where convolutions and plot-holes end up leaking in.


In brief: I find it immersion breaking when the cake exists dispute being consumed.

[Hoihe]

As a tabletop GM myself, I am well aware that various players have strongly different motivations for playing an RPG in the first place. It is my suspicion that what an individual finds most immersion breaking is likely something that opposes that motivation for playing, so I think it relevant to disclose mine.
Some game for escapism, or for coping through issues, or for an area to feel strong or in-control.
My personal motivation is a shared space for counterfactual exploration, for exploring a world that could be and extrapolating the outcome.

As a result, I have found that my greatest immersion breaker is a lack of consistent consequence for decisions. As it stands, many consequences, such as travel time, economics, poor social manner, injuries, discrimination, and death are all elective consequences: they are by default not a concern, and avoiding them is not noteworthy. Instead, when something as trivial as a character with 6 Cha can be bypassed with a thesaurus, or the hundreds of miles between cities skipped by a brief stroll, it trivializes someone else's investment in avoiding that pitfall.
Why not have a dump-stat unless there is a tangible penalty? Why be concerned about Domain restrictions if you can finagle whatever god permits your chosen combo since no one can hear you pray to a dark power for a simple healing? What is the significance of of escaping death if it's just a revolving-door-afterlife with a token fee?

These are all consequences, but they are not applied equitably.
A Dex-dump-stat is my preferred, because it is just as applicable to most encounters as whaever my shoehorned max is. Charisma is the classic almost explicitly because unless a DM calls it out specifically, most PCs can go their entire career without a Cha-check balancing the scales of their fate. A similar reasoning can be applied to most of my examples - namely, unless the PC or DM personally decides to make it significant, the drawback functionally doesn't exist. Each system I have seen that permits character flaws for mechanical advantage strongly encourage using flaws that directly impact the character's chosen role, but it is in the application that actually matters.


This isn't to say I am an advocate of arbitrary penalties. On the contrary, I am find consequences without cause to be just as concerning as causes without consequence. Rather, I support the idea that decisions by a character should have a lasting and understandable impact on the situation, and the situation vis-à-vis the character. As an example, I have enjoyed previous NWN2 servers with accumulative death mechanics - where you had to be a real bonehead to perm, but it was a consequence of being impatient; taking the time to recover between each reduced the risk to none, while sequential deaths increased the risk. Having a unidirectional impact, or a purely positive or negative impact is where convolutions and plot-holes end up leaking in.


In brief: I find it immersion breaking when the cake exists dispute being consumed.

I find it immersion breaking when a rich and well connected PC who is close friends with a cleric capable of at least level 7 spells keeps complaining and whining about their scars and saying they had the best healers try to fix it.

I find it immersion breaking that i am forced to be constantly running my brain on what a DM has planned to ruin either my ability to RP my character, or ruin my ability to interact with characters I love. That i am forced to be unable to act purely in character if i do not want to expose myself to ill-wishers.

I find it immersion breaking that werewolves can claw someone in a way that a level 9 spell leveled cleric of sehanine couldnt heal. A cleric who has proven capable of calling down miracles.


I find it immersion breaking how religious conflict is often ignored. Alongside distance and the needs of characters. Leading to a party of open tormtar partying with a open Bhaalite partying with a selunite partying with a open sharran to run from Easter farmlands fire to kill a balor 150 miles north without stopping once.

I find it immersion breaking how so many times characters are clearly puppets to tell a story rather than people living their lives, or to smash monsters. Amusingly enough, the pro-story/condequence advocated often feel like thus - only existing to do an event or to plot and intrigue without a life of their own.

I find it immersion breaking to run into a PC and after a week of knowing them, they disappear without a trace that neither Sending or Scrying or letters allow contact. While the player goes on to play their millionth alt.

I find it immersion breaking that friends of 5-6 years retire as NPCs in my character's village and despite living within an arm's reach, my character cannot hang out and chat and interact with the person. If they didnt feel like a artificial puppet before, now they do.

I find it immersion breaking how empty the world feels at times without the ability to hang out with the commoners in one's village, to form genuine and natural bonds without it being DM plot hooks.

I find it immersion breaking to go to the same dungeon every single day if i want to be able to fight a band of no name bandits with 50 ab in dm event without dying.

I find it immersion breaking to encounter an elf raised on evermeet who claims "Homosexual relationships between elves are sinful and treasonous to Corellon, for they do not bear children." Not human raised. Evermeet raised.Where elven faith and culture is the strongest. And elven culture says love regardless of gender, status or race (unless itd result in daemonfey or halfdrow)(there is literally a elven myth of a treant and a green elf)

I find it immersion breajing that the only times sailing rp is possible is when DMs show up and it gets skipped for only combat or horrible storms.

In that vein i find it immersion breaking that someone with a modified 37 astronomy (30 ranks) skill would fail to navigate to waterdeep from BG while in sight of the coastline.

I find it immersion breaking for having DMs dictate my character's answer to raise dead.

[Zaelphion]

I find it immersion breaking how religious conflict is often ignored.

Maybe that's because there are no consequences to conflict? I dont know... it could be?

I find it immersion breaking that friends of 5-6 years retire as NPCs in my character's village and despite living within an arm's reach, my character cannot hang out and chat and interact with the person. If they didnt feel like a artificial puppet before, now they do.

What would you prefer? Forcing them to play? I don't see the point of this one.

[Kaybrie]

For my earlier posts, I wasn't trying to dig at any specific DM or event, to be honest. I appreciate the time they're willing to give me, and more trying to express a general frustration I've had where even when I say I'm okay with permanent things happening to my characters, there's been a tendency where they don't, even when they should. There's no one event that I'd want to point to because I appreciate the time given to me regardless and honestly its how most of my events wind up going.

What I would like to note is that a lot of these DM's say they're perfectly okay with doing some damage to a PC, but then when the hammer falls shy away from it at the last second, even when the PC (me in this case) is perfectly okay with it or has even directly consented. This has been the case over a wide birth of time, years even. Some of those DM's are not even staff anymore.

I also recognize that the DM's have and do events where players are affected personally in some way; which is great. I was more voicing that such has never happened with me, in spite of me voicing that I'm okay with it, and have been in many situations that should have lead to something permanent happening to said characters. And for someone who thrives and enjoys stories most when they have consequence, where they force my characters to grow out of their flaws or die by them, that gets frustrating. Doubly so when apparently (according to Hoihe) the server is rife and abundant with events that scar characters, inflict permanent mental anguish, get them banished from their homes, etc.

[DangerMouse2]

Couldn't these consequences be self-inflicted? I have only been in one a handful of DM events, and the biggest consequence from that was mental anguish for my character for having killed a citizen of BG by mistake. For all other consequences inflicted upon my characters, they were all self-induced. Whether it be their demise or maiming. While DM involvement is critical, I think the most important element is other players. You could go out on an adventure with another player on something as simple as a loot run through the Hill Top Ruins, but if something unexpected happens that you share with others, then you could turn that into something consequential and long lasting for your character. There's really nothing to stop us from writing our stories based on happenstance and shared experience. Right?

[Edit: I don't know why I said "one" I was thinking of one in particular but in actuality I think I have been in about four.]

[Kaybrie]

Couldn't these consequences be self-inflicted? I have only been in one DM event, and the biggest consequence from that was mental anguish for my character for having killed a citizen of BG by mistake. For all other consequences inflicted upon my characters, they were all self-induced. Whether it be their demise or maiming. While DM involvement is critical, I think the most important element is other players. You could go out on an adventure with another player on something as simple as a loot run through the Hill Top Ruins, but if something unexpected happens that you share with others, then you could turn that into something consequential and long lasting for your character. There's really nothing to stop us from writing our stories based on happenstance and shared experience. Right?

They could (and some love this even, for which I'm happy for them), but the point of collaborative storytelling for me is the marks other people, players, or DM's leave on my characters. If the only noteworthy things to happen to my character are self-inflicted, I may as well be writing a novel or some short stories so I'm not beholden to the server's rules. Elsewise this is something I am happy to do with other players, and have in the past even.

Most of my enjoyment on the server comes from player-side conflict, to be honest since it's the only place where I feel like my opponents actually want to beat my character. I don't force or even ask for anything permanent to be hoisted onto my opponents when I win, but I'm always happy to concede those sorts of things when others win. (within reason, obv I'm not interested in getting perma'd by a player if they're not willing to extend the same. And I'd only think this was appropriate as the culmination of a long-standing rivalry. And would be super awesome if someone ever wanted to do something like that with me.)