Setting immersion and...things

[Ahku]

First - this server is great, this PW is fantastic.
The following is just a comment on a PW played back in the day:

I remember a small but good PW that was permadeath based.
Low level Characters (1st to 3rd) would gather at a campsite that was blessed by the god of healing (that would stop their bleeding).
They would discuss how they would head out into the forest surrounding the town to deal with wolves, wild pigs, etc...
Terrified of being killed, as a raise dead by a temple cleric would cost 500gp / lvl (and resurrection was a flat 10k).
When someone did die their stuff dropped to the ground, and hopefully their companions carried their remains and gear back to town.
Or if no friends were near some criminals just waited for them to bleed to death (or flat out kill them) to take their gear.

RP was pretty intense on this server...

characters would write contracts for aid or wills if they didn't make it back alive (raise dead didn't always work).
Potions took 2 rounds to use (remove from pack, then swig), healing kits took 1 turn. and no raise dead scrolls.

it was pretty rough but it was also pretty great too...
The highest level character on the server was a cleric of Mystra (13th), and compared to the rest of us (1st to 5th levels mostly), she was demi-god like!

My many attempts at a sorcerer finally got me to 3rd level (i think) before the admin shut the server down for personal reasons.

[DangerMouse2]

They could (and some love this even, for which I'm happy for them), but the point of collaborative storytelling for me is the marks other people, players, or DM's leave on my characters. If the only noteworthy things to happen to my character are self-inflicted, I may as well be writing a novel or some short stories so I'm not beholden to the server's rules. Elsewise this is something I am happy to do with other players, and have in the past even.

Most of my enjoyment on the server comes from player-side conflict, to be honest since it's the only place where I feel like my opponents actually want to beat my character. I don't force or even ask for anything permanent to be hoisted onto my opponents when I win, but I'm always happy to concede those sorts of things when others win. (within reason, obv I'm not interested in getting perma'd by a player if they're not willing to extend the same. And I'd only think this was appropriate as the culmination of a long-standing rivalry. And would be super awesome if someone ever wanted to do something like that with me.)

I think you and I are saying the same thing. Perhaps my usage of "self-inflicted" in this context was inappropriate. Maybe a better wording might be cooperatively-induced or cooperatively-inflicted.

[DangerMouse2]

First - this server is great, this PW is fantastic.
The following is just a comment on a PW played back in the day:

I remember a small but good PW that was permadeath based.
Low level Characters (1st to 3rd) would gather at a campsite that was blessed by the god of healing (that would stop their bleeding).
They would discuss how they would head out into the forest surrounding the town to deal with wolves, wild pigs, etc...
Terrified of being killed, as a raise dead by a temple cleric would cost 500gp / lvl (and resurrection was a flat 10k).
When someone did die their stuff dropped to the ground, and hopefully their companions carried their remains and gear back to town.
Or if no friends were near some criminals just waited for them to bleed to death (or flat out kill them) to take their gear.

RP was pretty intense on this server...

characters would write contracts for aid or wills if they didn't make it back alive (raise dead didn't always work).
Potions took 2 rounds to use (remove from pack, then swig), healing kits took 1 turn. and no raise dead scrolls.

it was pretty rough but it was also pretty great too...
The highest level character on the server was a cleric of Mystra (13th), and compared to the rest of us (1st to 5th levels mostly), she was demi-god like!

My many attempts at a sorcerer finally got me to 3rd level (i think) before the admin shut the server down for personal reasons.

This sounds really awesome. And if it were around, I would probably play there.

[Kaybrie]

I think you and I are saying the same thing. Perhaps my usage of "self-inflicted" in this context was inappropriate. Maybe a better wording might be cooperatively-induced or cooperatively-inflicted.

I think consent would be the word I use, I usually consent to bad things happening to my character, but I don't care enough to direct what specifically unless it goes into something -really- extreme. At which point the server rules would prohibit it anyways.

[c2k]

I find it immersion breaking how religious conflict is often ignored.

Maybe that's because there are no consequences to conflict? I dont know... it could be?

Yep. That and no one can handle conflict resolutions that don't favor themselves.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Posting this without calling out specific people will be hard, so if some of this is vague. . . well, it has to be.

What I'm seeing in this thread is, "No matter your playstyle or what you like for immersion, you are wrong." I'm also seeing accounts of encounters inflated to at best hyperbole, and at worst downright lies.

I had started with the intent to lay out my own ideas of what the world is, and what I find helps immersion, but I'm sure I'll just get flamed and told, "you're wrong" without any real reason other than, "You're wrong because that's not what I like".

But. I'm no coward. Let the flames come.

To me, the FR setting is very gritty and dirty. Sure, there are lots of heroes in our PW. But that's not the setting. In the setting, there is one hero to thousands upon thousands of people who have no way to get healing that they need, or to even access to clean water. We see this throughout sourcebooks and novels. The world is meant to be one of hardships and struggles with a huge power gap between the haves and have nots.

As far as magic, even minor trinkets are somewhat rare. I know I'll get flamed for this. But look at Drizzt. What magic items did he have? Only a handful. (Off the top of my head there's his blades, his panther, and the bracelets he wore on his ankles. Perhaps a few others here and there.) Look at Cadderly. The fact he could cast some of his spells was an astonishment to most people. And the dude raised an entire library with just his power. Even for him, raising a loved one was no small deal, and no certainty. Magic and magic items are rare. The average person in the FR will go their whole life without seeing anything magic.

As far as magic solving everything, that takes the fun out of every aspect of the game for me. If there is a simple solution, there is no risk. If there is no risk, then the reward is meaningless. You may as well do nothing but RP relationship drama at that point. And even then tell the other people "Don't be too harsh. I don't want to lose." The risk of consequence and failing is what makes things fun. The very best story I ever got was after my toon lost in PvP, and was taken hostage. The story came from him trying to cope with that, and the fears it created. If "magic had taken it all away", then I would have missed out on so much good story and character development.

Besides that, just like our toons' power levels aren't their sheet level, so too we have to think of magic as nerfed. Yes, a god could simply will away all ills of a person, leaving them with a happy life. But that's no fun. So, we can either all play in a perfect little utopia with no issues whotsoever, or we can "nerf" the god powers to be able to have fun.

And as much as I'm trying to not call anyone in particular out, the idea that "PTSD can be cured easily with magic, so you're wrong to play someone with it" I find not only OP and fun taking, but actually offensive. As a person with actual PTSD from multiple combat tours to Iraq and Afghanistan, having a safe place to explore and react as a toon with this issue gives me the freedom and therapy that I need to remember how to be human again.

Finally (maybe), the idea that "it's just a game" is true, yes. But most of us play it far more than "just a game". It's a hobby at the very least, and as I've said it's therapeutic for others. So while it's "just a game", it's one that we collectively spend hundreds of thousands of hours on together. So while yes, it's just a game, using that as a dismissive term is insulting. Warhammer 40k is just a game. But it's one that I've spent hundreds of dollars on, and countless hours painting my figurines. I have an emotional investment in it. Just as I have on toons that I play in NWN2. If you truly believe it's "just a game", then perma your toon. Start over right now. If you say no for any reason... it's not "just a game".


Added after: Also, I personally have never had a bad encounter with PvP and conflict RP, even with some of the people that have been called out in this thread.

[DangerMouse2]

I agree that this game has definitely been more than just a game to me. It is something truly special. With that in mind, I hope that we are also able to see something positive in this thread. I would love to keep this thread alive because I miss Blackbird, and I hope he will come back someday and find this thread still going strong, not to put others down for how they RP, but perhaps to help us better RP with each other. We have our differences, and sometimes they are irreconcilable, but usually they are not. I hope that we are able to find some middle ground and compromise with each other. And I think that is very important to our immersion.

[Steve]

This sounds really awesome. And if it were around, I would probably play there.

You could nearly play with such high stakes on BGTSCC, currently.

Just create a Permadeath PC at creation by talking to the Death NPC in the Nexus, don’t mule Items, and don’t cheat.

[Almarea90]

My character developed an anxiety disorder after a DM event, which happened entirely as my choice and nobody forced me into it. Imho, in a setting were psychoanalysis is practically unknown and since it's not something huge like my character losing speech or going completely insane, it doesn't make much sense if she goes like "oh it must be a psychic disorder due to a trauma that can certainly be fixed with healing spells".
To her the anxiety, even an irrational one that keeps her awake at night, of losing those she loves is simply a logic consequence of that almost happening. Something which is part of her life experiences that are part of growing up. Experiences that carry good and bad things, wisdom and fear. If someone reaches the conclusion that their ailment can be fixed with magic so be it, but if most don't it makes perfectly sense.

[zhazz]

Immersion really is a two-sided coin.

Which is why there are so many different opinions in this thread. With some of the posters being quite direct, and fervent in their opinions and beliefs. Such is only natural, however, since we are all different people. We all have different wants and desires. Both for our characters, for ourselves as players, and for other players and characters.

The key word when it comes to immersion is a rather simple one: Respect.

Respect that not everyone is playing the game for the same reason as you are.
Respect that other characters and players have an agenda.
Respect if someone says no to something you propose for them/their character.
Respect if someone changes their mind about something they previously agreed to.
Respect that someone might agree to something that might impact your character by proxy.
Respect that someone might have a different narrative for a story you might be interested in.

And most importantly: Respect other people's opinions.


I agree with both JustAnotherGuy, and Hoihe. At least partially.
Can magic solve everything? Absolutely.
Should magic solve everything? No.

It really comes down to personal preference in any given situation. Right now I would politely decline any evil-doer from engaging any of my characters in capture-RP following some PvP aftermath. My head is simply not in the right place for it. In the past I have indulged such RP, and I have no doubt that I will again in the future.

For the sake of immersion, I expect another player to respect if I tell them no to capture-RP.
At the same time I do not want to invalidate their RP, and a potential plot they might have been working towards for a while.
So if the player asks me, and I say no, and they then fly off the handle, then I will stand my ground, and simply ignore them. If, however, that player is understanding, I am happy to work something out with them. A fade-to-black of events, where we briefly discuss and agree on the outcome, how long any negative effects last, and what can be done to undo them prior to their natural duration expiring.

And that is where I think some few players might take a false step. They are so entrenched in their own little world that they forget to communicate. When communication fails it quickly becomes an issue of us vs them. My way or the highway.


Faerûn is not a utopia. Far from it. Certain places definitely are, but those are rare, when considering how big the world is. That doesn't mean the majority of the world we play in is going to be a horror house, however. For the most part it is quite mundane, bland, and boring. But just like there are utopias in a few places, so there are also dystopias.

For me, immersion is being able to explore all three sides of the world we play in. The utopia, the regular, and the dystopia. Respect my decision, when I want to go one way or another, and I will do the same for you. If we disagree, then let's talk it out in tells, and find a happy medium. That's immersion. A break of immersion happens when one or both sides are too stubborn to work it out.



To make an example on the whole magic debate, and how it ties into immersion, I'll share a bit of Adrian's story from seven months ago:

Hidden: show

Having only realized just a few months prior that he was a Tiefling, and not a Human, Adrian found the weight of that revelation settling down upon him. Like flicking switches in his mind, some information was suddenly available to him, and as these revealed themselves at an ever-increasing rate, which caused him to have horrible nightmares, and even sleep-walking in a delusional state on several occasions.

Lots of spells were used to mitigate the issue. Such as Protection from Evil, Mind Blank, and even Greater Restoration, but none helped. At least not fully so. Lore-wise they should have cured the nightmares altogether. However, my goal was to use this calamity for personal growth for Adrian. By talking with others about his nightmares, his fears, and his emotions he was able to grow. He was also able to deepen his friendship with several characters, while also lessening other friendships.

In the end, Adrian grew immensely from the experience. An experience that was only the top of the iceberg of a much larger issue. However, because there had been RP tied into helping him get rid of his nightmares, those underlying issues were easier to put into context as they were slowly revealed.

Has magic won the day, and been used to solve the riddle of his nightmares entirely, there would have been little-to-no growth for Adrian, and a lot of clues for later would have been missed. Magic wasn't ineffective, though. It just helped mitigate the issues Adrian was facing, allowing him to work through the process with his friends.

It made for an altogether more immersive experience for those involved, even if there at times were frustrations that needed to be worked out in OOC tells.

[DaloLorn]

I find it immersion breaking how religious conflict is often ignored.

Not here.

I find it immersion breaking how so many times characters are clearly puppets to tell a story rather than people living their lives, or to smash monsters. Amusingly enough, the pro-story/condequence advocated often feel like thus - only existing to do an event or to plot and intrigue without a life of their own.

I hope none of mine have come off like that...

I do try, I think, to make my PCs come off as living beings, with their own wants and desires. However, there's only so many hours in the day, and only so many of those that can be spent RPing, so I try to limit myself to interesting moments and interactions in their lives. (This can include conversations with other people, of course! )

I find it immersion breaking to run into a PC and after a week of knowing them, they disappear without a trace that neither Sending or Scrying or letters allow contact. While the player goes on to play their millionth alt.

This one was the first to catch my eye, since I feel it partly applies to me. I do try to avoid being untraceable, but I can only play so many characters at a time. Usually, if someone else is interested in RPing with them, that's enough to keep me interested as well... if not, then they'll silently fade into obscurity as more interesting concepts come up.

I find it immersion breaking how empty the world feels at times without the ability to hang out with the commoners in one's village, to form genuine and natural bonds without it being DM plot hooks.

How do you propose we fix that, with a DM team of less than a dozen people for a server population of at least a hundred?

I find it immersion breaking for having DMs dictate my character's answer to raise dead.

That's fair, I think.

Hidden: show

Having only realized just a few months prior that he was a Tiefling, and not a Human, Adrian found the weight of that revelation settling down upon him. Like flicking switches in his mind, some information was suddenly available to him, and as these revealed themselves at an ever-increasing rate, which caused him to have horrible nightmares, and even sleep-walking in a delusional state on several occasions.

Lots of spells were used to mitigate the issue. Such as Protection from Evil, Mind Blank, and even Greater Restoration, but none helped. At least not fully so. Lore-wise they should have cured the nightmares altogether. However, my goal was to use this calamity for personal growth for Adrian. By talking with others about his nightmares, his fears, and his emotions he was able to grow. He was also able to deepen his friendship with several characters, while also lessening other friendships.

In the end, Adrian grew immensely from the experience. An experience that was only the top of the iceberg of a much larger issue. However, because there had been RP tied into helping him get rid of his nightmares, those underlying issues were easier to put into context as they were slowly revealed.

Has magic won the day, and been used to solve the riddle of his nightmares entirely, there would have been little-to-no growth for Adrian, and a lot of clues for later would have been missed. Magic wasn't ineffective, though. It just helped mitigate the issues Adrian was facing, allowing him to work through the process with his friends.

It made for an altogether more immersive experience for those involved, even if there at times were frustrations that needed to be worked out in OOC tells.

I can sympathize with that viewpoint... When Caili was suffering from amnesia this summer, Chall's first thought was to have the Corm Orp cleric cast a restoration spell. Per the SRD, it probably should have worked... but this would have turned days of setup and anticipation into a brief, 30-minute RP session followed by throwing the character back into mothballs.

Because I didn't allow that to happen, Caili forged new friendships (such as with most of House Spades), learned a lot about the world and even herself, and reconciled with her parents in Waterdeep. She did, eventually, get mothballed again, but not before a month or two of RP - and character growth - that would not have been possible without it.

[Kiran]

Having read through this, I want to stress a few things.

I completely disagree with many views here, but I also know that BG caters to everyone's way of playing here, unlike many servers. None the less, I also know that just because I disagree with what people wrote, it does not mean they are wrong, or that my opinion is right or the correct one. Some people simply play on this server for completely different reasons than mine, and that is what makes it great.

I am on my 5th character now in 4-5 years of playing on this server, and I love the consequences/harshness of what my actions do, but I also want to play that way and roleplay that way. Does that mean people who enjoy this more for a social game or that magic fixes many things are wrong? Of course not. This does not mean that my Alcoholic wheezing paladin has to be instantly cured by some high-level magic. That is not what I want for my character as it would ruin his whole set.

I must admit to this day of likely having attended over 100 DM events, I have never been given an ultimatum or crippling injury without them asking me, and I honestly wouldn't want them to ask me, but they do, and some even go as far as to after the event hit me up on forums or discord to ensure I was okay with the choices and work on the story together.

Maybe I am still "newish?" to the server, but this has been my experience for the last 5 years when it comes to the Dungeon masters of this server. This is not to say there are not a few sour grapes or bad apples, but I have not experienced them myself in any event over the 5 odd years.

Also, this is not a DND campaign or roll20 game. In those games, the Dungeonmaster typically combines a group of like-minded people who want a specific adventure or set game. This server you don't know what 99% of the other people are doing, and trying to react to things and find out things you don't know is the whole idea and fun, for me at least, I love the detective work that goes into finding out why X Y Z occurred.

And again, for some, it is not. And that is okay as well.

Can my level 30 paladin 1 hit a vampire with greater smite? Course he can. Do I roleplay him in such a manner? Of course not. He is an old man past his prime. I do understand the rules of "Play your sheet" - But if I did, I would be a Demi-God of Mystra and likely not bothering with peasants, such as you guys!

Anyway, stop worrying about these things and play the game is my suggestion. Find the people you like roleplaying with, the ones you like to hang out with, create stories and just avoid or ignore the people you don't.

Stay classy, BG

[Shadowspinner70]

Zhazz, Kiran, you're both reading my mind.

Some of my most immersive events have left me in tears or might as well read like a soap opera that also ends with me sobbing. There's respect, as Zhazz echoed several times. Respect each other's OOC wishes. For example, I'm not going to suddenly have Aunrae channel her gods' divinity and heal everything that is wrong with Fenwick, or have Azariah snap and do all kinds of horrible things to Hoihe's PCs.

A, without cussing, it's an awful thing to swing onto another player like that.
B, both players have established that they don't want this for their PCs. It's an awful thing to force onto them. In the case of the snapping, the PC hasn't done anything to warrant something like that.
C, there's probably so much more that's wrong with forcing these things onto people.

As JustAnotherGuy said, there are people without even clean water or enough food to put on the table. There are far more dystopias than utopias, and even more normal events than both combined. There are far more commoners to every hero and you rarely receive anything without some risk. That's just a fact of it. Powerful magic does exist to reverse these things but truly, how common is it? I would honestly say resurrection being available at temples is a massive stretch because if that were the case, wealthy families and militaries would have field days and take those priests for themselves.

It's dirty. It's gritty. But it's also an immensely beautiful setting with both grace and brutality. There's the slice of life, horror, and miracles. I have PCs that would be horrified by the idea of psychoanalysis and anyone near the depths of their minds while others would might as well beg for it to see if they can be healed. Our PCs are mortal. Some are stubborn and refuse help. Others truly need it.

As much as we might gripe about each other's PCs imperfections, that's what makes them alive. That's another bit of immersion for me and if you want the rest of my opinion, please check out Zhazz and Kiran's posts before this one. They say it wonderfully.

[Ahku]

First - this server is great, this PW is fantastic.
The following is just a comment on a PW played back in the day:

I remember a small but good PW that was permadeath based.
Low level Characters (1st to 3rd) would gather at a campsite that was blessed by the god of healing (that would stop their bleeding).
They would discuss how they would head out into the forest surrounding the town to deal with wolves, wild pigs, etc...
Terrified of being killed, as a raise dead by a temple cleric would cost 500gp / lvl (and resurrection was a flat 10k).
When someone did die their stuff dropped to the ground, and hopefully their companions carried their remains and gear back to town.
Or if no friends were near some criminals just waited for them to bleed to death (or flat out kill them) to take their gear.

RP was pretty intense on this server...

characters would write contracts for aid or wills if they didn't make it back alive (raise dead didn't always work).
Potions took 2 rounds to use (remove from pack, then swig), healing kits took 1 turn. and no raise dead scrolls.

it was pretty rough but it was also pretty great too...
The highest level character on the server was a cleric of Mystra (13th), and compared to the rest of us (1st to 5th levels mostly), she was demi-god like!

My many attempts at a sorcerer finally got me to 3rd level (i think) before the admin shut the server down for personal reasons.

This sounds really awesome. And if it were around, I would probably play there.

Or perhaps a non-droppable token that give the above permadeath experience for those who choose it?

[Steve]

Or perhaps a non-droppable token that give the above permadeath experience for those who choose it?

Optional Permadeath.