Post here for Chest issues with loot/gold

[Steve]

I enjoyed the hazard, don't get me wrong. In a party with 3 PCs, the mimics didn't just go down easy, far from it. But of course, we had a Dwarf fighter, so...that Mimic, any Mimic, really has no chance.

That said, why wouldn't a Mimic cough up (!!) some loot once it was bashed into deader than dead?!?

On the issue of Spotting, yes, it was interesting when 2/3 of the PCs in our group spotted the Mimic. Of course, if you Spot it, you can't do anything—it just sits there. But when our 3rd member couldn't make the Spot check, it "woke" the Mimic, and we had to battle it. I guess that mechanic is a bit strange, since if you recognize the Mimic, you can't choose to fight it, which I would say your PC should be able to choose. Thus, the only PC that will have a hassle with a Mimic is one that can't spot it.

DESTROY ALL MIMICS!!!

But on the run away issue...you can't really design for run away when Death has no real meaning. No sensible Player is our adventuring without Raise Dead scrolls, so in a group, you'll almost always survive, unless you're being absolutely OOC stupid in your play. And even if one is soloing with their PC, you no longer earn more XP/loot than with a group, and if you do perish in your solo exploits because choosing not to run away, the player is far more likely to just spawn and return to a) get the rest of the Areas loot; b) to regain that lost XP.

It is only when a mechanic to "disable" or "cripple" the PC so that adventuring and xp/loot gain is rather impossible for X time, will it create absolute incentive to choose run away—and then return...—over just plowing through the content and taking the risk in a much more OOC manner. Imho.

Again, don't get me wrong: Mimics are awesome! Atm, mechanically, they are a challenge. Shouldn't that challenge (ie risk) also earn a reward?

[gedweyignasia]

Adding a reward to that risk encourages players to kill the mimics. If there's no reward to the risk, then the optimal strategy is to run away. That's the only way to push players in that direction when death is meaningless; give them no benefit to fighting.

A player who successfully spots a mimic can still trigger it by attempting to bash the chest.

[yyj]

Does rolling 20 on the open lock check affects loot at all?

[Steve]

A player who successfully spots a mimic can still trigger it by attempting to bash the chest.

Don't remember that option, but I'll pay attention to it next time.

...the optimal strategy is to run away. That's the only way to push players...

Can't say I agree with that desire quoted, cause I'd say choice to risk and win reward or run without risk is more enjoyable, but okay. Best then to also remove any XP gain!

[gedweyignasia]

I'd say choice to risk and win reward or run without risk is more enjoyable, but okay.

It is more enjoyable when you can win something for exposing yourself to danger, rather than simply being exposed to danger and having to respond. However, creating a world where every risk carries a reward with it teaches players to run headlong into any danger.

I'd like to ensure that builders have tools in their kit that can make players think, rather than simply attacking everything in sight and knowing that (i) the fight is balanced so that they can win it and (ii) they will be rewarded for doing so. I want players to have to think and react to clues, rather than mindlessly grinding through content.

[Steve]

Shouldn’t it be how the PC’s think, or have the capability to think? We’re RPing here, and if I’m playing a low INT, low WIS, low CHA Half-Orc, I can imagine RPing that PC as one to bash before analyze.

Nonetheless, applying puzzles, non-combat options, etc., is fantastic. I can only promote this more! But definitely under an Umbrella Guideline of more options possible, the better.

Want to solve the puzzle? Risk v reward. Want to bash? Different but existing risk v reward. Want to run? Different risk v reward result (if one considers living a reward ( )!

Of every risk should not return a reward, as mentioned, then THAT is why I say also remove XP reward. Because then, you’ve now done as is stated: force unlearning on players.

Unfortunately, 99% of the game supports progression through XP gain and loot gain. Progression via chat is far too slow a progression, and my PCs cannot make loot gains—which is like more-than-half-the-fun of this game—other than...looting. If I could play a INT based toon and solve puzzles respectful to his IC Ability, and progress (level up), I’d be so very happy and grateful to the design and implementation. But that isn’t really NWN2 or BGTSCC, is it? If the intention is to make PC Abilities beyond the ability to slay monsters provide greater progression, that sounds awesome and more power to you all to guide the Server onward.

I’d like nothing more than to play my 50 skill Diplomacy, 55 skill Intimidate and 60 skill Bluff toon and progress from sheer overwhelming Charisma, against mobs and Bosses, or, just IG puzzles! Wow, what a treat that would be. So obviously I support non-combat alternatives.

Will my Toon be able to alternatively Intimidate a Mimic to coughing up its guts (treasure), or else get bashed, or, my toon fails the DC and has to run away?

Cheers.

[gedweyignasia]

Shouldn’t it be how the PC’s think, or have the capability to think? We’re RPing here, and if I’m playing a low INT, low WIS, low CHA Half-Orc, I can imagine RPing that PC as one to bash before analyze.

Absolutely. Keep in mind that this is intended to change how players think, and not to decide how their characters must think.

If the intention is to make PC Abilities beyond the ability to slay monsters provide greater progression, that sounds awesome and more power to you all to guide the Server onward.

The intention is to make dungeons more of an adventure and less of a job. Less monotony, more elements that will provoke a meaningful decision, more opportunities for RP while adventuring. That doesn't necessarily mean puzzles, but it does mean, "I see a pile of gold coins at the bottom of a pool of acid, maybe I shouldn't wade in because that might kill me" instead of "They wouldn't put treasure there if I couldn't get it safely somehow." Because yes, there will be bait for lethal traps. And maybe that pool of acid is survivable if you have wards providing elemental resistance, but they won't all be. There's a lot of thinking that happens OOC which decides how a player will make their PC act.

I’d like nothing more than to play my 50 skill Diplomacy, 55 skill Intimidate and 60 skill Bluff toon and progress from sheer overwhelming Charisma, against mobs and Bosses, or, just IG puzzles! Wow, what a treat that would be. So obviously I support non-combat alternatives.

I don't want you to get your hopes up here. No amount of Charisma will allow a player to convince the side of a mountain to open up a cave and squeeze its ore deposits into gold ingots in that cave. Similarly, no PC is going to be suave enough to convince monsters into whose home they're intruding that they have an exciting investment opportunity. That said, I have a dungeon which is still in the concept/design phase where players might (in one or two situations) find use for conversation skills to reap greater rewards than they would through combat. I've got a lot on my plate before I can get back to that, though. (Loot rebalance, libraries+books project, etc.)

[Steve]

Thanks for all you wrote, Ged.

I do though wish I could play my Skills-high PC against a Dragon, alas, I’m regulated to bashing only.

As to this:

Because yes, there will be bait for lethal traps.

I damn well hope you’re serious! If the traps are not going to straight one shot most all PCs unless well outfitted or warded and lucky ion the Dice, then it’s not enough. Go full bore here, make in a 1 in a 100 chance of survival, and make the reward worth it.

Otherwise, making something lethal just to say “stay away, run away” with content, actually isn’t fun. It ends up, imho, just creating another Area or section of an Area that Players learn to OOC avoid, because Risk v Reward isn’t worth RL time. Like Nashkel Crystal Caves, as example. When it was first implemented, it was hard as hell to survive but the loot was excellent. Then, shortly after implementation, the loot reward was reduced, and afterwards the Area sat in the Server hardly ever visited, because it WAS lethal but offered little gain.

Let’s be honest: players play here for two things: Character RP and Character progression (XP, Items, mechanical power). The best experience is a healthy dose of both! Personally, I think both should be challenging to achieve, but with gained rewards that make the RL time investment worth it. Not saying you, Ged, or any other Staff don’t share some or all of my statement above, but that one designed without the other, or challenges without tangible gains, even if the “challenge” is for the Player to learn to OOC retreat, is just simply not fun.

So I guess what I’m getting to is whether certain design “pathways,” where Players are pushed to game outside of a norm (like bash & loot for example), should there be a reward for that retreat? Personally, if this is just an OOC issue, I’ll 100% always take the chance for 50xp, even when it’s risky and difficult (like Mimics are), because everything I’m gaming for is unlimited, and I’m literally spending my RP time on PC progression. Others may validly spend their RL time investment on chat RP, or even turn off XP gain altogether and never leave a Tavern.

But as far as I’ve observed in BGTSCC, even the “heavy” RPers are checking the Auction daily, and regularly looting the Vault, the Graypeaks, etc. Doesn’t that observed reputation not speak volumes?!?

Cheers.

And thank you for all those projects you’re looking to invest time into. They all read great!

[gedweyignasia]

Go full bore here, make in a 1 in a 100 chance of survival, and make the reward worth it.

The reward certainly won't be worth it; the idea is to create hazards within every dungeon that players should learn to avoid. They need to use their judgment and decide not to engage with every danger they come across.

It ends up, imho, just creating another Area or section of an Area that Players learn to OOC avoid, because Risk v Reward isn’t worth RL time.

Yes, this is exactly the intention. Hazards players must learn to recognize and avoid. I'm trying to explain this, but I think I'm failing. There must be "dead ends" where players should not press forward because it will get them nothing and may kill them. They've been taught that if they have the option to jump off of a cliff, there must be a reward for doing so or the opportunity would not have been provided. That's wrong. When you jump off of a cliff, you die. Don't jump off of cliffs.

[Steve]

Don't jump off of cliffs.

Lol. How much sweet talk do I need to present for you to ACTUALLY put this in an Area?!?

[gedweyignasia]

Oh, you'll be seeing things like this. Keep in mind that it might not be possible to get raised if you go into a certain hazard, because it would kill the person trying to raise you too.

[chad878262]

I have always found it odd that a character jumping off the cliff in the Mountain Ogre caves in Full platemail with 400 pounds of loot in their pack lands in a 5' pool of water and somehow takes no damage... What Ged proposes is IMO an amazing long term goal for the server, but it does require some adjustment to player mentality and some players will undoubtedly find it unfair, at least at first. That said, if we take the 'long term view' it will eventually create an environment of really allowing (and in fact enforcing) considering risk v. reward from your PC's view. Especially in the PvE levelling experience where you are not yet 30 there is still risk to dying, at least in the sense of losing XP, which does start getting painful in mid-levels (though is not truly painful until you reach ~20 where XP rewards are lower while the XP needed is more and the penalty is higher).

The reward for avoiding traps like the above example of gold in a pool of acid, or a roper statue surrounded by dozens of bones or a bottomless pit (just a few of the examples from PnP dungeons I recall) is of course living to continue exploring. Find the treasure that you can *safely* acquire and get out with your life! Go after the treasure that has no clear way of acquiring it safely and you very well may end your adventure in a way you wish you hadn't. Go in with a party and they likely will have ways of reviving a fallen member (but there is no guarantee!), meaning you can risk going after that treasure, and maybe there *is* a way to acquire it safely, perhaps through magic, or skills, or just thinking logically and finding the solution to a problem.

What I hope to (eventually) see is situations where you may find a puzzle/trap/obstacle that you can't solve in the room where it's located, but if you explore fully, maybe you find one or more items/clues/mcguffins that allow you to backtrack and get passed it. However, if you fail to understand or correctly solve for the clues/whatever then again, hope you have a party that can/will retrieve and raise the sacrificial crash-test dummy.

In any case, some of this is already there and the idea is to consider the rewards holistically for a dungeon, not for a single encounter. Sometimes the reward is defeating an encounter or finding hidden treasure...Other times the reward is avoiding/surviving a trap that offers no reward other than being able to continue on with proper avoidance. All of this, IMHO brings the design of the PvE experience more in line with the PnP experience of partying up, thinking critically and determining risk v. reward. Of course the meta will *eventually* become known, but with a more entertaining PvE experience perhaps we have a larger/more stable player base and thus more interest from Area Builders to adjust area's to keep things fresh for all.

[SpookySkeleton]

So, lasering in on this nearly un-survivable pool of acid with a bad reward at the end, wouldn't that just become dead room on the server? eventually people would OOCly learn that its not worth their time and nobody would interact with it anymore. Having players mindlessly avoid a hazard isn't going to achieve your goal of making players think, I think.

I feel like it would be better for the traps/acid pool/steep fall to actually have something worthwhile at the end of it, but in order to survive the players must be prepared. Make the dangers varied enough that it becomes worthwhile to include a varied party rather than 5 fighters. You'll still catch people off guard running headlong into danger. But instead of everyone learning "yeah lets just avoid that pool of acid forever" they would be learning "hmmm.. a pool of acid, did anyone think to bring a wizard?"

"Hmmm... a steep cliff. Did anyone think to bring a rope?" (maybe a dex or tumble check since i dont think use rope exists)

[Hoihe]

So, lasering in on this nearly un-survivable pool of acid with a bad reward at the end, wouldn't that just become dead room on the server? eventually people would OOCly learn that its not worth their time and nobody would interact with it anymore. Having players mindlessly avoid a hazard isn't going to achieve your goal of making players think, I think.

I feel like it would be better for the traps/acid pool/steep fall to actually have something worthwhile at the end of it, but in order to survive the players must be prepared. Make the dangers varied enough that it becomes worthwhile to include a varied party rather than 5 fighters. You'll still catch people off guard running headlong into danger. But instead of everyone learning "yeah lets just avoid that pool of acid forever" they would be learning "hmmm.. a pool of acid, did anyone think to bring a wizard?"

"Hmmm... a steep cliff. Did anyone think to bring a rope?" (maybe a dex or tumble check since i dont think use rope exists)

The checks should make sense in setting too.

If it's an action a commoner does every month, then an adventurer shouldn't fail it after they're past level 5 and got some skill at the task.

We used to have devs who thought it a good idea to make stepping over a rail in the middle of the city SCALE with the player level. Because commoners will totally manage to pass the dc 35 reflex check to... step over a rail.

Also, feats need to be respected. A Swashbuckler has Acrobatic Mastery for a reason. Evasion exists for a reason.
Spells also need to be respected. Death effects ignoring Death Ward should not be a thing. Physical traps should not ignore evasion. Elemental spells that ignore immunities are the supreme power of dedicated specialists, and not something that traps can easily replicate.



Also for encouraging partying - do it, but don't punish characters who play their faith or alignment faithfully and cannot party with certain people.

[gedweyignasia]

So, lasering in on this nearly un-survivable pool of acid with a bad reward at the end, wouldn't that just become dead room on the server?

Yes, and to that end, these sort of things need one of (i) a bit of randomness to them, (ii) a skill check to identify them, or (iii) to be added/updated/moved regularly by builders. There will always be the excitement the first time you see something, and that will work well for low-levels, but especially for epic dungeons, it's necessary to include 1-2 (but preferably all 3) of the above elements to hazards, because you're right; players eventually will adapt and memorize which content to avoid vs which content to explore.

We used to have devs who thought it a good idea to make stepping over a rail in the middle of the city...

Yes, I'm not a big fan of that particular design either. It didn't motivate any changes in the player's approach; you could walk over the rail and risk tripping or walk the long way around and lose more time than if you'd tripped on the rail.

Also, feats need to be respected. A Swashbuckler has Acrobatic Mastery for a reason. Evasion exists for a reason.
Spells also need to be respected. Death effects ignoring Death Ward should not be a thing. Physical traps should not ignore evasion. Elemental spells that ignore immunities are the supreme power of dedicated specialists, and not something that traps can easily replicate.

I generally agree, but in settings where there may be powerful wards or magic items beyond the abilities of players, it's certainly reasonable to bypass magical defenses. (And, of course, you must remember the nature of the effect! Phantasmal Killer will bypass Death Ward, because it is a Fear effect which kills the player, not a Death effect; however, it will fail if the victim is immune to Fear or Mind effects. I know this is bugged in NWN2, but I'm not sure if we fixed it. Similarly, Implosion is not a Death effect, and you would expect that to bypass Death Ward.)

With respect to Energy Immunity, which I assume you are referencing, I don't think anyone would make a hazard which bypasses that spell without consulting with QC or a DM to determine if it was fair from a gameplay or lore perspective. (e.g. "Should anyone be able to just skip this hazard with a 6th-level spell?" and "Does it hold from a lore perspective that Energy Immunity: Fire lets you wade through a pool of lava?") The alternative is always to substitute with something the player cannot avoid, such as positive/negative energy, magic damage, etc. From a builder's standpoint, it's less gratifying to use those because it doesn't provide as dramatic or pleasing results with respect to aesthetics, but we try to take the player's mindset into consideration (e.g. It might be very surprising for a player with Energy Immunity: Acid to take acid damage), so our hands are sometimes tied there.

However, if you encounter a bug where you feel that a feat has not been properly considered, definitely post a bug report about it. (I don't know of any traps which ignore Evasion, as I think Blackman D has already confirmed for you. Although please bear in mind in writing your bug report that Evasion only works for Reflex Saves allowing for half damage, not Reflex saves against additional adverse effects. You might have saved against Daze or such. Be sure to fail the save and see the full effects before filing a report that Evasion didn't work.)