Reliance on consumables/UMD as THE paradigm on BGTSCC

[Hoihe]

This is simply inaccurate for several reasons. First, Greypeaks mobs AB is 34 so 55-58 AC means you are only hit on a 20 and I am pretty sure that is the highest AB goes outside bosses. However, if you are allowing yourself to be surrounded by two or more mobs, than positioning becomes important when you do not have Improved Uncanny Dodge than Flanking bonuses apply, which may mean you are able to be hit on rolls below 20 (and enemies can land critical hits). The fact you have HiPS and still are having issues with AC that high is odd... My Rogue with 40 AC and Epic Dodge does fine even solo, sometimes using Cat's Grace and Shield Wand to reach a whopping 46 AC. I only tell you this because I think you perhaps need to consider changing tactics because while your build is survivable, perhaps the way you are utilizing the capabilities at your disposal are less optimized and causing problems. I didn't become capable of surviving PvE until I stopped 'beating my head' against the proverbial wall and came to understand the issue was in my approach, not in my build. Athkatlan in this case is probably hurting more than it is helping. While ICE you can 'flip on' after the first flurry out of stealth, Athkatlan cooldown will make it more difficult to manage. Best bet to do more damage with more APR. Or, if you want Athkatlan, use parry mode as it effectively removes the downside of losing attacks (Parry mode will still give one parry per flurry or 3/round).

Frost Giant Fortress

Frost Wyrms have 38 AB.

Once had two spawn on me at once to boot.

Frost giants had 34-37 AB depending on luck.

If possible, I try to fight 1v1 to gain my +3 duelling AC from swashbuckler.


As for party play and difficulty -

I am of the camp that I prefer easier content when partying to reduce the amount of people relying on round/cl buffs.
I really, really, really hate it when a party keeps casting Haste and Displacement and runs around without RP.

I gave a NWN1 server a try a while back. They balanced their content around parties of 3-5 with constant buffing.
I couldn't find a sliver of RP there outside the people I gave the server a try with, as whenever dungeons came up - people buffed up to high heavens and ran around to maximize their buff's impact. When we tried to do dungeons without Haste and Displacement, we ended up having to go a whole 6 levels below our party of 3 (a wizard, a dex tank, a TWF WM) to be able to avoid dying. Once we got into epics, that plan didn't work anymore either.

[chad878262]

IDK Hoihe, use HiPS more? Your experience is just not what I or others that I adventure with or test with in game are seeing. As I said, my Rogue that I have primarily been utilizing to test epic looting on the server runs around with 40AC (with IMA wand included), 42 w/ Cat's Grace, 46 w/ shield amulet, 47 if hasted. Ihave not used a mirror image wand once, but he does have epic dodge. In any case with him it can get dicey when more than one enemy is there, but otherwise as far as rogue goes I don't even worry about hit and run tactics, just stand there until HiPS cooldown expires and still rarely get hit more than once a round. Cloudpeaks (Frost Giant Keep, including King, Lizardman cave, Lich) is my number one destination during loot testing so I feel pretty confident that the area is where it should be. Any easier and a group of 2 or more would have zero challenge.

[Svabodnik]

[...]It is just a matter of not only understanding builds, but also figuring out tactics and strategies for a given character that you are playing.[...]

In wholehearted agreement there, and my previous point was meant to affirm your comment about 10K-DPR WMs, not argue against it. I don't see consumables/UMD as the paradigm on BGtSCC. It's simply the tactic and strategy needed for certain builds to do certain content, if they intend to do it without having a party member tank for them or give them certain buffs (or really, just any party member at all). From my experience, glass cannons and similar-type builds aren't crippled by a reliance on UMD/consumables. They're crippled by trying to force a square peg into a round hole, in expecting to succeed in certain content without providing solutions to the problems from their selection of feats, class levels, and attributes. Likewise, some may struggle in spreading themselves so thin in trying to do everything that they end up being unable to properly do anything. UMD/consumables simply serves as a stop-gap for those holes left behind.

[chad878262]

rom my experience, glass cannons and similar-type builds aren't crippled by a reliance on UMD/consumables. They're crippled by trying to force a square peg into a round hole, in expecting to succeed in certain content without providing solutions to the problems from their selection of feats, class levels, and attributes. Likewise, some may struggle in spreading themselves so thin in trying to do everything that they end up being unable to properly do anything. UMD/consumables simply serves as a stop-gap for those holes left behind.

This is another great point Svabodnik. Often times just simply making some compromises is enough. For example if we take F14/R4/WM7/FB5 and drop Weapon Master, say instead going F12/R3/DC10/FB5 we have just boosted all saving throws significantly, added 4 feats and for the expense of fewer and less powerful crits (which do not help us against all enemies.) To soften the below we have Divine Wrath on a cooldown timer that can be +5 AB, Damage and Saves for 1 minute out of every 5 while also having smite for a tiny boost. Point being, while I would never argue that this build is anywhere near as good damage wise, it also should be instantly obvious that you have taken a massive shortcoming of the Weapon Master (saving throws) and addressed it quite well. Addtionally you now have a ton of feats to play with (Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind no longer needed - you'll still grab WF and CE of course). So you actually gained 8 Feats (4 from DC levels, and 4 from the above feats you can skip) which leaves a ton of room for shield feats, AC feats, Northlander Hewing for damage buff when going sword and board instead of two handed, etc.

The above is why any time I start building a Weapon Master I end up going a different direction. No matter how great those crits look, they just aren't worth it to me.

[Steve]

Does anybody go into Areas and not use either consumables or UMD? How far below your PC’s Level is the CR of that Area visited without relying on consumables and/or UMD?

Talk about learning your build and making build sacrifices for a better rounded PC is valid, but that doesn’t change the fact of what current Content was built for.

Yes, it is a medium to low-ish challenge for a 4-5 group of PCs matching appropriate CR Area. 1–30.

But the issue is that consumables and UMD allow players to solo, but not on all builds, just those that have a few “gaps.” It is the Party concept that should fill those gaps, not infinite consumables and UMD.

BGTSCC caters to all kinds of RP. But it IS an RP Server, right? Is soloing content role-play? Should any Area be solo able in principle? Don’t we have scripts that adjust mob number and strength based on PCs?

To the point: can one play a non-buffing PC in Epic Areas without consumables and/or UMD? Does a lesser challenge in mobs and Bosses make role-play less fun, or does it make our building efforts for max potential less fun, even though it would open up a wider range of Feats taken, because you won’t have to focus on max building potential AND rely on buffing (and maybe reduce the soloing?)?

[Snarfy]

Does anybody go into Areas and not use either consumables or UMD? How far below your PC’s Level is the CR of that Area visited without relying on consumables and/or UMD?

~ snip ~

To the point: can one play a non-buffing PC in Epic Areas without consumables and/or UMD? Does a lesser challenge in mobs and Bosses make role-play less fun, or does it make our building efforts for max potential less fun, even though it would open up a wider range of Feats taken, because you won’t have to focus on max building potential AND rely on buffing (and maybe reduce the soloing?)?

I tend to not use consumables only on my sneak(who has full UMD) in a fair bit of epic areas, mostly because:
A. I am cheap as hell and don't like to use my consumables.
B. I like a challenge.
C. I would rather try and tip-toe past things that can kill me than buff to the nines and risk getting dispelled and dying anyways(like against pit fiend).
And D. ...(you're going to hate this one Steve)... he's level 30, and if I'm solo and happen to croak: *re-spawn at FAI*

I don't really play any straightforward melee builds with UMD reliance, come to think of it. Probably because the dispels would drive me nuts. Which is, I think, a part of the problem: I wish the AI was not a one trick pony... I wish spellcasting monsters somehow utilized the full range of their "spellbooks", and I wish epic melee mobs weren't so jacked, and prone to rolling obscene amounts of 20's and crits. I know what to expect 99% of the time with the AI, and it has made me lazy.

[Svabodnik]

[...]Does anybody go into Areas and not use either consumables or UMD? How far below your PC’s Level is the CR of that Area visited without relying on consumables and/or UMD?[...]

Guessing you're asking about non-casters, since the gish, the thaum, and the Augment Form transmuter that I've played certainly don't need it except for a couple rather circumstantial uses (like a Bless Weapon wands to bypass /good DR on a boss). For full-mundie mode, my grey orc WIS monk and shield slam tankbarian have performed rather well unbuffed. I'd put my STR-focused fighter/warlock into the same general category, since the warlock abilities were more to augment her melee focus rather than vice versa. The two HiPSers I've played, the standard-issue P2WF rogue/assassin/etc. as well as my EA/AA archer didn't really need UMD if I slotted in actual combat gear rather than Hide/MS skill bonus gear. Given the party-based balance of the content, being 4ish levels above the zone CR makes it fairly reliable running something solo without UMD with a balanced defense/offense build, in my experience. To be honest, I'm unsure how much of my actual consumable use is now due to habit of playing quite a few glass cannons as it is an actual necessity for survival.

[Hoihe]

Does anybody go into Areas and not use either consumables or UMD? How far below your PC’s Level is the CR of that Area visited without relying on consumables and/or UMD?

Talk about learning your build and making build sacrifices for a better rounded PC is valid, but that doesn’t change the fact of what current Content was built for.

Yes, it is a medium to low-ish challenge for a 4-5 group of PCs matching appropriate CR Area. 1–30.

But the issue is that consumables and UMD allow players to solo, but not on all builds, just those that have a few “gaps.” It is the Party concept that should fill those gaps, not infinite consumables and UMD.

BGTSCC caters to all kinds of RP. But it IS an RP Server, right? Is soloing content role-play? Should any Area be solo able in principle? Don’t we have scripts that adjust mob number and strength based on PCs?

To the point: can one play a non-buffing PC in Epic Areas without consumables and/or UMD? Does a lesser challenge in mobs and Bosses make role-play less fun, or does it make our building efforts for max potential less fun, even though it would open up a wider range of Feats taken, because you won’t have to focus on max building potential AND rely on buffing (and maybe reduce the soloing?)?

I consider less challenging PvE to make roleplay more fun, for reasons previously mentioned:

The less a party needs to use round/cl buffs, the more detail they can put into roleplay and the slower they can afford to progress. If content requires said party to use cl/round spells such as Haste or displacement to survive encounters, they will end up dropping roleplay for no-RP running through the thing ASAP.

[Tanlaus]

Does anybody go into Areas and not use either consumables or UMD? How far below your PC’s Level is the CR of that Area visited without relying on consumables and/or UMD?

Talk about learning your build and making build sacrifices for a better rounded PC is valid, but that doesn’t change the fact of what current Content was built for.

Yes, it is a medium to low-ish challenge for a 4-5 group of PCs matching appropriate CR Area. 1–30.

But the issue is that consumables and UMD allow players to solo, but not on all builds, just those that have a few “gaps.” It is the Party concept that should fill those gaps, not infinite consumables and UMD.

BGTSCC caters to all kinds of RP. But it IS an RP Server, right? Is soloing content role-play? Should any Area be solo able in principle? Don’t we have scripts that adjust mob number and strength based on PCs?

To the point: can one play a non-buffing PC in Epic Areas without consumables and/or UMD? Does a lesser challenge in mobs and Bosses make role-play less fun, or does it make our building efforts for max potential less fun, even though it would open up a wider range of Feats taken, because you won’t have to focus on max building potential AND rely on buffing (and maybe reduce the soloing?)?

I consider less challenging PvE to make roleplay more fun, for reasons previously mentioned:

The less a party needs to use round/cl buffs, the more detail they can put into roleplay and the slower they can afford to progress. If content requires said party to use cl/round spells such as Haste or displacement to survive encounters, they will end up dropping roleplay for no-RP running through the thing ASAP.

Same can be said for more challenging PvE as well...

Take a group through the Netherese ruins, up into the scorching caverns and then to Durlags.

It’s immense. You can’t rest at will and you can’t just blow through it. Even when you do know the way, which even going through it as many times as I have I forget what shadow will teleport you where.

You have to take you’re time. Casters need to save spells for when they are really needed, against some of the more powerful enemies, and melee deals with the rest.

It’s probably the most difficult run in the game and, because of that, the most like pnp.

Even the few power builds that can probably solo it won’t get the same rewards due to the high DC doors some of the chests are locked behind.

I’d argue they experience is a lot closer to PnP than doing circles around Wyvrens, trying to RP the fact that even though you just killed 300 of them, “look there’s more!”

[RagingPeace]

Does anybody go into Areas and not use either consumables or UMD? How far below your PC’s Level is the CR of that Area visited without relying on consumables and/or UMD?

If my character was level 30 I probably wouldnt bother with consumables and simply go as far as possible... If making it to a boss, I might use some. But since my melee'er is a level 26 evasionless fighter I have to in most areas. I can probably do troll caves and kro's descent without, but if theres a caster or boulder thrower in an area im popping consumables to either heal or speed up killing.

[Planehopper]

I think, perhaps, saying something is "the most like pnp" is pretty subjective. There are rules in pop for high level characters to run baronies, manage trade costers, etc. I dont know if a really hard dungeon is really the closest thing to pnp that can be found here. Id say it is not.

And therein lies the difference that causes the split in the playerbase. Some folks see dungeon running, killing things and taking their loot, as the key aspect of dungeons & dragons. Some see the stories made possible through the mechanics as the key aspect of dungeons & dragons.

But both sides need gold and treasures, because guilds, assets, and roleplay often costs as much gold or more than a shiny ninja hood.

When we balance end game content around "well you should take this level split and these feats", we take away any variance that may come up in roleplay and treat it more like an MMO doing 'raids' than a role-playing game building stories.

You can see the outcome of that based on the state of RP on the server right now. Anyone saying its as good as its ever been is clearly blowing smoke or hasn't experienced some of the best times.

There is a meta understanding of "what works" mechanically and it seems to me that what works is becoming more cookie cutter and methodical and less organic and story-based.

This UMD/Consumables discussion is just a symptom of it.

[zhazz]

My character Adrian can solo most non-boss content. He runs into issues, however, when dealing with spell spam, save or die spells, crit immune monsters, and monsters with high DR.

To some extent he can make use of Disarm to lower incoming damage from epic level monsters, but many monsters are, for some inexplicable reason, immune to such.

His build is a straight up combatant, with no HIPS , UMD, DR, Evasion, Fast Regen, or self-buffing.

He could probably take on some bosses solo, or CR 27+ champions, if it was possible to Disarm these.

Against anything with both crit immunity and DR he is effectively useless.


My suggestion:
Make more of the non-magic control options more viable on the server. Knockdown, Disarm, Blinding Strike, etc.

[Hoihe]

My character Adrian can solo most non-boss content. He runs into issues, however, when dealing with spell spam, save or die spells, crit immune monsters, and monsters with high DR.

To some extent he can make use of Disarm to lower incoming damage from epic level monsters, but many monsters are, for some inexplicable reason, immune to such.

His build is a straight up combatant, with no HIPS , UMD, DR, Evasion, Fast Regen, or self-buffing.

He could probably take on some bosses solo, or CR 27+ champions, if it was possible to Disarm these.

Against anything with both crit immunity and DR he is effectively useless.


My suggestion:
Make more of the non-magic control options more viable on the server. Knockdown, Disarm, Blinding Strike, etc.

Sometimes the same area has mobs that are disarmable, and mobs that aren't.

Grey peaks:
Fire giants with spears are disarmable
Fire giants with swords are not.

The reason escapes me.

[Tanlaus]

I think, perhaps, saying something is "the most like pnp" is pretty subjective. There are rules in pop for high level characters to run baronies, manage trade costers, etc. I dont know if a really hard dungeon is really the closest thing to pnp that can be found here. Id say it is not.

And therein lies the difference that causes the split in the playerbase. Some folks see dungeon running, killing things and taking their loot, as the key aspect of dungeons & dragons. Some see the stories made possible through the mechanics as the key aspect of dungeons & dragons.

But both sides need gold and treasures, because guilds, assets, and roleplay often costs as much gold or more than a shiny ninja hood.

When we balance end game content around "well you should take this level split and these feats", we take away any variance that may come up in roleplay and treat it more like an MMO doing 'raids' than a role-playing game building stories.

You can see the outcome of that based on the state of RP on the server right now. Anyone saying its as good as its ever been is clearly blowing smoke or hasn't experienced some of the best times.

There is a meta understanding of "what works" mechanically and it seems to me that what works is becoming more cookie cutter and methodical and less organic and story-based.

This UMD/Consumables discussion is just a symptom of it.

That’s a fair point. Let me try to rephrase to be clearer.

I think, unlike an MMO, the combat mechanics of 3.5 D&D, are more balanced around a group of players than a single player. There’s a lot of variety in individual builds but the relative power levels are less important when they act in support of each other instead of alone.

So going through a dungeon during PnP is maybe not exclusively, but almost exclusively meant to be a team effort.

So in PnP, dungeons are designed to be tackled by a group, and the challenges are set appropriately.

It’s not that easier or harder gameplay specifically is more or less similar to a PnP experience, but playing as a group is more similar to a PnP experience than soloing is.

My argument, which I admit is subjective, is that a satisfying group experience can be fostered by areas like the Netherese ruins where relying on one’s teammates and supporting each other is necessarily part of the experience.

Grouping, and gameplay in general, is more fun when everyone has a chance to shine in their respective roles. Tanks cans tank, DPS can DPS, priests can keep everyone on their feet, and casters can have the opportunity to unleash a variety of fight changing spells depending on the situation. And in that group dynamic you don’t have to be the best or most powerbuilt character. Just adequate in whatever role you’re performing. The whole really is greater than the sum of its parts, to steal a phrase from Aristotle.

As a counterpoint I’d say like the least satisfactory experience is going on a run with a couple of archers who kill everything before it gets near you. Not that I’m disparaging archers, they have their own issues. Just that it’s an example of a situation where the game gets boring for the other players because they’re not actually doing anything.

If every area is soloable then by epics you lose the a large part of the fun of grouping. Everything becomes a speed run.

[Steve]

If every area is soloable then by epics you lose the a large part of the fun of grouping. Everything becomes a speed run.

To build from this...and why I experience that consumables and UMD make soloing easier/possible, lessening the need for a group, meaning it’s “funner” to speed run content solo to “make your quota” then go back to RPing...until your next opportunity to adventure, which will be solo...thus rinse and repeat.

Not to put those words on you, Tanlaus! They are my observation.

I’m not here arguing to remove consumables or UMD, but instead to consider a design where they are not needed to adventure and counter the Content, for Tier Two builds and lower. To consider the non-buffing build the capable norm, and make burst feats and magic an aspect to be saved and tactically utilized (the tripling Rest Timer...except for resting in Inns, that would be whenever and always).

Look, I solo the Server lots, but I play DND and thus BGTSCC for the Group Adventure. I simply experience the content (mobs, bosses) designed to counter massive consumables and UMD, and yet simultaneously not a challenge when using, but majorly impossible to challenge when not using (unless in a perfectly rounded out group).

And finding that is quite a needle in a hay stack!