Suggestion: remove one of the Saves for Weird and PK

[c2k]

I do think Illusion is one of the best schools on this server, perhaps not damage-wise, but the utility is so good with all the added spells.

Please elucidate! Are you referring to the “Image” line of spells? Do you find the Conjure Shadow spells useful?

Also, I thought Death Ward had been nerfed in a way to provide other Schools spells to bypass, now.

The image spells are great, and with the right build you can navigate a lot of the content with it (maybe even all of it if you go for complete optimization.) Image spells seem to take up the Henchman slot, you can have one with summons, like Shadow Simulacrum. Mislead is a good escape spell and the AI falls for it.

By conjure shadow, do you mean Shadow Conjuration? idk if greater shadow conjuration is any good, but Shade and the regular shadow Conjuration do a lot of work.

If you mean the Conjure shadows spell, having 1-3 shadows to take the pressure off you isn't bad. granted that spell does run out of usefulness at some point.




As for PK and Weird, I do believe they get around all death immunity, not just the one provided by death ward. the necromancy death spells don't ignore death immunity from what I recall.

[Steve]

As for PK and Weird, I do believe they get around all death immunity, not just the one provided by death ward. the necromancy death spells don't ignore death immunity from what I recall.

I see the point you’re trying to make here, but, Weird AND Phantasmal Killer have an important this:

Creatures immune to mind spells, fear, phantasms are immune to this spell.

Which is like every epic mob, boss...and a boat load of PCs!!

[Thaelis]

Totally agree.

It doesn't even really have a niche use, being 20x more likely to fail than WotB or other 9th level spells.

Pathfinder version is actually better than WotB against some enemies because it has some effect even when they inevitably make the save.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/weird/

[zhazz]

On topic, we can try to look at stuff to do for PK an
Let’s look at Wail of the Banshee. Colossal area, Fortitude or Die to a number of mobs equal to Caster Level. Is WoB just OP, and other Schools shouldn’t get pumped to what Necromancy can achieve? Is then WoB going to get a Will save check added to it as well?

Wail of the Banshee is supposed to affect allies and non-party members too, like Fireball does. Positioning is key with the spell. Fix that part, and the spell becomes balanced.

[Hoihe]

As for PK and Weird, I do believe they get around all death immunity, not just the one provided by death ward. the necromancy death spells don't ignore death immunity from what I recall.

I see the point you’re trying to make here, but, Weird AND Phantasmal Killer have an important this:

Creatures immune to mind spells, fear, phantasms are immune to this spell.

Which is like every epic mob, boss...and a boat load of PCs!!

Lowering either mob saves, or just outright redesigning encounters to be about a group of mobs who are individually strong with each component immune vs sth would massively improve things.

But is also impossible labour.


I do wonder if we could script a spell that removed immunities from a PvE mob (and just breached PCs, making it so those immunities come from invisible buffs) on a HD + 10 + d20 vs Cl + abjuration bonus (1/3/6l) + d20), while also making it not affect undead for death and similar cases

[c2k]

As for PK and Weird, I do believe they get around all death immunity, not just the one provided by death ward. the necromancy death spells don't ignore death immunity from what I recall.

I see the point you’re trying to make here, but, Weird AND Phantasmal Killer have an important this:

Creatures immune to mind spells, fear, phantasms are immune to this spell.

Which is like every epic mob, boss...and a boat load of PCs!!

Well that was always going to be the case. even buffing PK and Weird, you still have that immunity to mind affecting spells conundrum. Thats also what makes most of the Enchantment school completely useless, aside from a few custom spells that are coded to bypass it.

I should also note that when it comes to mobs and bosses, they are immune to many things that are not damage.

However, PK and Weird were affected by both immunities at one point, so in that manner they were improved.

[Steve]

Well that was always going to be the case. even buffing PK and Weird, you still have that immunity to mind affecting spells conundrum.

My issue though is that I think in the design of BGTSCC, too many mobs and Bosses were given Immunity to Mind-Affecting feat, or set to Immortal, or whatever. Besides that and where it isn't true, there are also the inflated Saves of 50+ combined with Steadfast Determination.

Even in you min/max to epic level, a Weird is only going to be DC 40 (more or less, right?). 50/50 chance, twice in a row? You know the Engine was designed to make Players fail intentionally!!! LOL.

Nonetheless, some idea of a Weird spell now causing: 1) Will save to disbelieve; 2) CL x dX dmg and Stun; 3) Death on failed Fortitude save, would at least provide some semblance of reliable utility. More and more I like this idea of cascading effects. However, other spells already in the "good zone" should be considered being adjusted as well, otherwise it is still simply always more lucrative to the Player to go Necro/Conju-o/Transmo.