NERF THE MASTER ALCHEMIST ELIXIRS!!!

[Steve]

Anything that is not subjected to chance, has no place in a game based on that principle, D&D, and thus this Server. That’s my perspective.

Playing on guarantees is essentially a meta-gaming of the eventual outcome OF play. Think about it. Do we allow meta gaming on BGTSCC?

If nerding CL 30 elixirs actually nerfs the PrC into unplayability, then maybe it’s a good thing to come up with a positive addition to the MA, to balance out the suppressed “loss?” Like, being able to craft Poisons alongside elixirs, for example.

[Yugo]

You explained very well thank you.

Nerfing the elixirs remove any appeal from the class to be honnest. And let them be proud of being master alchemist?

Plus, not being able to enchant weapon just, please, let the crafter have the little they can get for pretending to craft anything usefull??

I think so many are missing the point here? Think about the crafter in all this?? And the rp they wish to bring to the table?

Plus elixirs are nalissa about only defense she has on the spot?
She gets wrecked in about any dungeon alone? Come see us and buy elixirs we make some for all and enjoy rp more than anything else.

[yyj]

Like it was said before, the two main offenders are tortoise shell and owl insight and specifically for monks, the rest of the class is fine, it's just those two elixirs, on monks that are problematic, for example Nalissa is not a druid I think so this nerf wouldn't affect her in any way.

The problem with the tortoise shell and owl insight is that it converts monks and other classes into juggernauts, the nerf is specifically to make sure that an already OP class, benefitting from two specific MA elixirs, it's more of an adjustment rather than a nerf.

If the argument being made is to protect RP, I don't think this nerf will hurt it at all much, because even after nerfing tortoise shell and owl insight elixirs, they will still be extremely powerful anyway, and I doubt that many of the elixir making alts that exist simply to profit, would have their rp hurt too much.

Those who live from the elixir rp of crafting, they will still profit from their elixirs, these changes won't kill the class at all.

[Grendunor]

Like it was said before, the two main offenders are tortoise shell and owl insight and specifically for monks, the rest of the class is fine, it's just those two elixirs, on monks that are problematic, for example Nalissa is not a druid I think so this nerf wouldn't affect her in any way.

The problem with the tortoise shell and owl insight is that it converts monks and other classes into juggernauts, the nerf is specifically to make sure that an already OP class, benefitting from two specific MA elixirs, it's more of an adjustment rather than a nerf.

If the argument being made is to protect RP, I don't think this nerf will hurt it at all much, because even after nerfing tortoise shell and owl insight elixirs, they will still be extremely powerful anyway, and I doubt that many of the elixir making alts that exist simply to profit, would have their rp hurt too much.

Those who live from the elixir rp of crafting, they will still profit from their elixirs, these changes won't kill the class at all.

As it stands now the DM team and Admins have no rule about people buying alternative CD-keys to create buffing alts to then buff their character and go "Solo" content.

- "Ah but Gren surely no one is so sweaty as to do that, you're imagining a problem that does not exist"

While the main person I'm thinking of who did this does not play any longer It is still a thing that can be done and has been done.

Having level 30CL on these elixirs is important in a game where Dispelling is very much the meta. You can't walk though an Epic level zone (save Troll cave) right now without being greeted by some form of greater dispell or Mordenkienen's dis junction. This makes these Higher level adventuring zones incredibly costly to buff in be it with UMD or as a caster with CL under 29.

The logic follows then that by making these Elixirs dispellable by anything other than a full caster you carve away what made them attractive in the first place. This will relegate master alchemists to an extreme niche of play with only a few niche spells being a desired purchase. Not only weakening the class mechanically in it's supporting role but weakening it's RP as well.


"If the argument being made is to protect RP, I don't think this nerf will hurt it at all much, because even after nerfing tortoise shell and owl insight elixirs, they will still be extremely powerful anyway, and I doubt that many of the elixir making alts that exist simply to profit, would have their rp hurt too much."

As I stated above, there are a few niche spells that make the class attractive. Tortoise and Owls alogn with another those in the know can figure out fairly easily with a bit of investigation. By nerfing Tortoise/Owls you don't fix anything outside of complicate the issue by one step and take away one of the few useful abilities of a five level PRC

[EasternCheesE]

I've been reading this one for a while and, i want to share my opinion on this.
This started as a thing i had in my mind for several months already (even though i didn't share my opinion on this). Steve started it and opened it up, so i found it was a good time to step in and discuss it too.
The fact we have so many broken spears lying around (that's an idiom from my native, which means hard discussion with no efforts), shows that there definitely is a problem with elixirs. But, in fact, it's not elixirs themself are a source of a problem, they are just a part of it.
While you started from it, many people spoke about scrolls, wands and UMD in general.
Elixirs are a part of "UMD for win" scenario we have here. It's easily accessible, it's what people consider mandatory when they build anything. How many PCs we have that don't have ~11 UMD?

There is no fast and easy solution, and, i believe, we will spend much more time to find the compromise on UMD, consumables, class restricted items and many many more. Please, have your patience and good intents. Try to be constructive. When you propose something, please think how it is related to other things and how it affects them too.

After reading people opinions, i no longer think Tortoise shell and Owl's insight are our main topic to discuss. It started from them, but it just shows that UMD system needs rework as a whole, not just small aspects of it. It's long and tedious process and i don't know if anyone has a good UMD system that would make our server less-UMD reliant, but still making UMD a useful (but not overpowered) investment.
Let us please see at the situation in general. Currently, if someone don't use UMD, they just hurt their build. There are no drawbacks of UMD usage aside from gold cost and sudden dispel whoopsie. Yet, there are imposed limitations. They have their reasons, i believe and those reasons serve the main goal. It may be not perfect, but we have something that looks like +- balance, even if it's not at it's perfect middle point.

I can list many things that are not "fair" or "balanced" in my view. Some of you will agree on them, some won't.
My own vision on this is that we will only shake this bog and rethink everything when crafting somehow finally starts being a thing. Having to spend ingridients/crafting points that are not handily available is already a good way to not nerf, no, but to impose limitations on it without actually limiting it.
Currently, wands, elixirs, potions crafters (some are less, some are more) hard to level. But, after it's done, it's just a matter of patience for buying wands/bottles/blank scrolls, using spell/feat on them, paying gold cost and listing them to auction. That's what makes UMD so available in first place. When person already has master alchemist, they just pop a portion of scrolls/bottles every time they rest, then they send them to auction and wait for gold to flow. It may be not super big gold, but, it requires no time and effort investments to make these after leveling is done.
Crafting could majorly address this part, efficiently imposing limitations on amount of alchemy/wands/scrolls produced with introduction of ingredients that are harvestable/gatherable/craftable themself.
Basing on elixirs, the situation when the only two things i need to do to get myself a 10-pack of tortoise shell elixirs and FoM wand are
1) Find alchemist
2) Have gold
3) ???
4) Profit.
This makes elixirs a common thing to consider and use. If we had ingredients and some way lower flat gold cost, that'd drastically change master alchemist gameplay. I imagine them funding expeditions to tough areas for gathering rare materials, spending their time to gather all needed and then, producing elixirs from what they got and having a very big flexibility on the price. I want those crafting ingredients to never be sold by NPCs (or, maybe with very limited stock per player per time), so players actually create infrastructure about it with all the RP of harvesting, hunting, using those mortars and so on.
Even then, i see the most potent elixirs and scrolls and wands slightly inferior to mighty spellcaster (I myself see limiting consumables CL at 25-28 so they still have a low chance to be dispelled with greater dispel magic). But, if creating a potion would require a coordinated supply-demand chain and getting myself a 10-pack of elixirs isn't a matter of 3 minutes and several thousands of gold anymore, it will justify all the high CL of potions, wands, scrolls and elixirs available that are capped right now.
To me, high CL elixirs, potions, wands and scrolls are not something one should be able to use for every adventure they take. Those are things for planned tough fights, emergency measures and so on. Getting all the profits spellcasting offers while not being chained by spellcasting limitations should require a bit more efforts over plain gold cost.

Those are just my ideas. I myself highly support the idea of starting the development of crafting system as a high priority, because, in my view, it can give a major game experience change (and we all know that we go same dungeons and sit at same campfires for years), it can create hundreds of RP opportunities and PC specializations and it can become another balancing factor for mechanically strong things without just tuning their numbers down to non-existence.

[yyj]

The master alchemist can be taken by clerics, druids and arcane casters, If nerfing two of the most broken and OP elixirs would kill the class, then the class has bigger problems, especially because what's being dicussed is either making those spells breachable, or capping the CL on them, not making the spells worse. (Some people have suggested nerfing the spells but I doub that would help)

There are many mobs with dispel on the server but still we keep relying on wands, potions, etc. to go there, for a long time and things been fine, getting a tortoise shell or owl insight dispelled won't ruin the game for anyone except those that want to be able to play god mode in a multiplayer, roleplaying game.

I don't know how popular is druidic elixir making rp, but people who enjoy that and like it will keep doing it, wheter these 2 elixirs are kept in this broken, OP state, or not.

[Steve]

Imho, a true caster (CL 30 of the Art or the Power) doesn’t need UMD. There are enough non-class limited Items and specific-to-Caster-class Items on BGTSCC for a caster to not need UMD to unlock.

Yes, so much Content was created to balance against caster-melee combo builds that could rofflestomp everything, which had a secondary effect to railroad any other build to require UMD to utilize Magic (buffs).

But simply, justify where in this game we players should have 100% guarantee of our IG actions outcome? When that can be justified, I’ll STFU, permanently.

The dare is on!!!

And EasternCheese is right, the foundation is cracked. The rewrite would be immense, but also awesome. Nonetheless, THAT project should not hold up capping elixir CL to allow minor failure.

Finally, I’m going to bet that even the toxic effects a PC should experience aren’t even that toxic, and can even likely be mitigated with further restoration/healing options so prevalent and available. Prove me wrong!

It’s a double dare!! Come holla at me.

[Hoihe]

I can't agree with you, Hoihe.
I had a cleric by my side when i used shapeshifter warlock with lowish CL. We were about lvl 23-24, and we did kill Green dragon and Ziggurat black dragon in duo. Both are immune to vitriolic blast, so it basically was my mediocre AB + ~15-20 dmg per hit vs them. We spent ~20-25 minutes killing green and about 30+ to kill black one. Cleric just had enough of spells to heal my when i was dropping to very low health through all that time. And that wasn't even a pure cleric since they used their Bow and dealt some good damage with it too. So, i guess, pure cleric who knows they will have to heal a lot, can provide quite a ton of healing, including regenerate etc.
Most of time, that Cleric used Heal spell to get me back from 50 HP, Mass heal when we both got damaged and so on. If he was able to to it 20 minutes of fight straight, i don't see how cleric cannot do it in longer, but not that face-to-face fight.

Did you have Mirror Image?




An encounter vs VoTD/Frost Giants/Fire giants requires AC of 57-62 to achieve an AB+20 AC. Especially if we account for flanking.

Unless you have AB+20 AC, an encounter will cost you 100 HP or more. Even with AB+20 AC, I frequently lose 100 HP due to frequency of natural 20s. In one instance, while partying, the fire elementals in grey peaks reduced me from 330 HP to 150 HP right at the start despite my 57 AC.

1 sell of Heal restores 100-150 HP. So, in essence each encounter costs 1 spell of Heal. From when I played a druid, I had like 4-5 level 6 and level 7 spell slots. So, I have enough Heal for 4-5 encounters, unless I take Still spell or Silent spell and fill my 7th/8th spell slots with Heal too, giving me 4-5 more encounters. And as a druid, I probably could afford higher wisdom than the equivalent cleric since Wild shape meant my physical stats were irrelevant.

There's far more encounters between the start of greypeaks/Vault of the Dead, than 4-5. Especially since caster mobs can turn the expected 100-150 HP loss to almost 300 or more (in a party, unless I abuse HiPS dodge, giant mystics of both frost and fire nature can drop me down to 50 or so HP from 330 due to Isaac's and other non-evasion spells).

The other healing spells are essentially useless. Cure Critical wounds? 4d8 + 20 - so around 36 HP on average for a level 4 spell! Its level 8 (mass) version gives +10 more HP. Each encounter, after running out of Heal spells, means you need to burn the like of 3-4 level 4 spells to be topped up. Again - potentially more if a mage was involved. (lesser) Vigor? 2 HP per round, so extended you'll heal 100 HP after 5 minutes of standing in place. Regenerate? Very high circle spell that lasts 6 minutes at best, which is enough for 2-3 encounters maybe. Useless in Vault of the Dead.

Now, mirror images can reduce the HP lost per encounter massively... But the only way to acquire mirror image is through UMD! So, some characters won't be able to afford it (skill points, RP, gold cost). Partying or not, your only source of the mandatory mirror image is UMD. The third alternative I can point to are hyper-rare Vamp regen 2 or 3 weapons with high enough AB/BAB to heal 18 HP/round. Which I have and thus wouldn't be affected - but, selfishly: i can always lose it, and generously: most players won't have such drop for them! Or afford it in the Epic store (which, for longswords: needs UMD, shortspears nah but there's no finesse variants).


And our cleric hasn't even buffed up yet, leaving them useless as unless a cleric uses a million round/cl spells, their partner might as well be soloing.


You might say "But heal kits!" - there are parties that are composed entirely of PCs with 10-14 strength. Healing 20-50 HP per 1 lbs is very, very inefficient.

Potions of various Cure spells are even worse than the cleric casting them due to lower Cl, requiring something like 0.5 or even 0.7 lbs per 100 HP to be topped up (even more if you only can find cure moderate wounds potions).

[EasternCheesE]

I didn't use neither mirror images nor displacement (the time i recollected i have a wand of displacement, it was too late since it's shapeshifter PC. dropping shape midcombat is death for him).
Well, it's not related to master alchemist topic directly, if you wish to discuss it, let's move to PMs, i'd happily aid on inventing possible strategies/build adjustments to make it more viable!

[TheTwiste11491]

Can we please get off this nerf x thing I don't like type of threads and move to making things more in line with the "Overpowered" bits?

[Xorena]

Currently, wands, elixirs, potions crafters (some are less, some are more) hard to level. But, after it's done, it's just a matter of patience for buying wands/bottles/blank scrolls, using spell/feat on them, paying gold cost and listing them to auction. That's what makes UMD so available in first place. When person already has master alchemist, they just pop a portion of scrolls/bottles every time they rest, then they send them to auction and wait for gold to flow. It may be not super big gold, but, it requires no time and effort investments to make these after leveling is done.

You forgot the prolonged effort it takes to level to 30 in the first place. The leveling is the hard part. The patience is in leveling and sticking with it. The reason it looks easy is because you see the end result. Anyone can make a level 30 master alchemist. Why don't we see more? Because it's hard to get to 30 and largely people are not interested in crafting.

Crafting could majorly address this part, efficiently imposing limitations on amount of alchemy/wands/scrolls produced with introduction of ingredients that are harvestable/gatherable/craftable themself.
…
This makes elixirs a common thing to consider and use. If we had ingredients and some way lower flat gold cost, that'd drastically change master alchemist gameplay. I imagine them funding expeditions to tough areas for gathering rare materials, spending their time to gather all needed and then, producing elixirs from what they got and having a very big flexibility on the price.

I have been on servers where you are required to farm ingredients. It turns the server into an MMO. Do we want that?

Even then, i see the most potent elixirs and scrolls and wands slightly inferior to mighty spellcaster (I myself see limiting consumables CL at 25-28 so they still have a low chance to be dispelled with greater dispel magic). But, if creating a potion would require a coordinated supply-demand chain and getting myself a 10-pack of elixirs isn't a matter of 3 minutes and several thousands of gold anymore, it will justify all the high CL of potions, wands, scrolls and elixirs available that are capped right now.

Depending on abundance of components, these elixirs are going to cost more or simply not be available if you go this route.

[EasternCheesE]

Currently, wands, elixirs, potions crafters (some are less, some are more) hard to level. But, after it's done, it's just a matter of patience for buying wands/bottles/blank scrolls, using spell/feat on them, paying gold cost and listing them to auction. That's what makes UMD so available in first place. When person already has master alchemist, they just pop a portion of scrolls/bottles every time they rest, then they send them to auction and wait for gold to flow. It may be not super big gold, but, it requires no time and effort investments to make these after leveling is done.

You forgot the prolonged effort it takes to level to 30 in the first place. The leveling is the hard part. The patience is in leveling and sticking with it. The reason it looks easy is because you see the end result. Anyone can make a level 30 master alchemist. Why don't we see more? Because it's hard to get to 30 and largely people are not interested in crafting.

Crafting could majorly address this part, efficiently imposing limitations on amount of alchemy/wands/scrolls produced with introduction of ingredients that are harvestable/gatherable/craftable themself.
…
This makes elixirs a common thing to consider and use. If we had ingredients and some way lower flat gold cost, that'd drastically change master alchemist gameplay. I imagine them funding expeditions to tough areas for gathering rare materials, spending their time to gather all needed and then, producing elixirs from what they got and having a very big flexibility on the price.

I have been on servers where you are required to farm ingredients. It turns the server into an MMO. Do we want that?

Even then, i see the most potent elixirs and scrolls and wands slightly inferior to mighty spellcaster (I myself see limiting consumables CL at 25-28 so they still have a low chance to be dispelled with greater dispel magic). But, if creating a potion would require a coordinated supply-demand chain and getting myself a 10-pack of elixirs isn't a matter of 3 minutes and several thousands of gold anymore, it will justify all the high CL of potions, wands, scrolls and elixirs available that are capped right now.

Depending on abundance of components, these elixirs are going to cost more or simply not be available if you go this route.

1) I didn't and i mentioned that the hard part of getting master alchemist is actually getting it to 30. After you have it, it's easy. I myself tend to grind a lot, thus, my vision on the speed of leveling is affected by this fact.

2) ... Please state what makes difference between MMO and roleplay server? To me, it is how players do it. I myself see millions of RP opportunities with ingredients, crafting and other things. Dedicated smiths, alchemists, who don't have to make RP explanations why they can make 6 elixirs every 20 minutes, because they actually have process of making things, RP hooks to buy/sell ingredients, expeditions to gather them. Much of player-driven job and RP opportunities for lowlevel or commoner pcs. Guilds actually gathering and buying things in order to rp them building their own stables. Some more tangible things even though it's not that good word in terms of virtual game in first place, cause nothing in games is tangible. Possibilities are endless. I don't see how having this all turns Bgtscc into MMO. It surely will take good parts of good mechanics many MMO games have and enrich it. Skyrim has crafting, Many survival games have crafting. Why having crafting = turning into MMO?

We have rudimentary crafting system already. If those beetle shells and roots resulted in more useful potions created, gathering would have already been viable here. Right now, nobody bothers with it except for RP purposes, because those gatherable things and their crafting result are no giving much mechanical usefulness.

3) Sure thing. But that's the point. Someone wants very strong super rare elixir? They'd have to get involved into trading rp, barter, adventuring to gather components for it. It's just a matter of design and balance which is too early to discuss anyway. There are ways to balance it, after all. And rebalance it if it turns out to be too strict/loose. And then do it again and again and again until we get satisfactory result.

[Kitunenotsume]

There appears to be another flurry of activity once more, so I shall attempt to re-address a number of matters to which solutions may have been overlooked. Replies in no particular order.

There is no fast and easy solution, and, i believe, we will spend much more time to find the compromise on UMD, consumables, class restricted items and many many more.
[...]
After reading people opinions, i no longer think Tortoise shell and Owl's insight are our main topic to discuss.

As it is said, the perfect is the enemy of the good. An idealised singular resolution will be so involved and complex as to result in no volunteer developer completing it in a reasonable time, when intermediate solutions exist to address the immediate concerns with very little effort and according to precedence. Such changes can also be reverted as appropriate when a complete solution comes online without being any more detrimental.

Owl's Insight and Tortoise Shell are among the primary reasons why the monk/druid combination is powerful. Under the current circumstance, elixirs of both permits all the benefits of being level 30 in both with no trade-off, thereby being tangibly more powerful than any hybrid. Until a more permanent solution is addressed, it is still highly pertinent to consider adding them to the existing list of anti-Gish CL capped elixirs.

It started from them, but it just shows that UMD system needs rework as a whole, not just small aspects of it.

I have mentioned that NWN2 does not handle taking UMD skills correctly (per P&P it is a class-locked skill, not cross class). However, I invite you to start a separate discussion on UMD, as it seems larger than the scope of the current discussion without trending egregiously out-of-topic, given the thread title. We have had multiple discussions specifically on elixirs divert in that direction, but it would be appropriate to have a central and prominent thread specifically for it.

But, after it's done, it's just a matter of patience for buying wands/bottles/blank scrolls, using spell/feat on them, paying gold cost and listing them to auction.

[...]

But, if creating a potion would require a coordinated supply-demand chain and getting myself a 10-pack of elixirs isn't a matter of 3 minutes and several thousands of gold anymore, it will justify all the high CL of potions, wands, scrolls and elixirs available that are capped right now.

As mentioned my first post in this thread, a faster and effective means of introducing production logistics is to bar elixirs, scrolls, wands, and other such consumables from the consignment system. Consignment permits OOC, uncoordinated, anonymous, asynchronous transactions, resulting in the listed 3-minute transaction with no RP or player involvement. It strikes me that this has more to do with the RP-less, expeditious, and impersonal manner than any other factors mentioned here.

Introduction of reagents would significantly increase costs, but would otherwise likely still result in said items being purchasable in the same 3 minutes but for more money. If the aforementioned reagents are also available on consignment, then much more money would be going to the Mudds family without any RP necessary to be generated.

Currently, wands, elixirs, potions crafters (some are less, some are more) hard to level.

Wand and potion crafters need 15 caster levels, and can take their crafting feat at level 28-30 with no other detriment. There is no levelling complication if you choose a class with automatic granted spells. This is fairly accessible to power-building.
Master alchemist requires taking at least 3 levels pre-20 and a series of feats that productive no mechanical advantage during the levelling process, while considered ineffective if not resulting in at least CL 30. This imposes significant limitations or disadvantages when power-building.

The results of the finished products reflect that differential. Sales also require some understanding of what clients consider valuable, and dramatically limit what products may be made available for profit. Market knowledge is not without it's own effort. Nor is knowing how/where/who to sell to - but per above point, consignment removes that effort.

The logic follows then that by making these Elixirs dispellable by anything other than a full caster you carve away what made them attractive in the first place. This will relegate master alchemists to an extreme niche of play with only a few niche spells being a desired purchase. Not only weakening the class mechanically in it's supporting role but weakening it's RP as well.

Anything that is not subjected to chance, has no place in a game based on that principle, D&D, and thus this Server. That’s my perspective.

The d20 system is not actually balanced for post-20 content (almost entirely due to the limitations of a d20). The impracticability of dispelling against any ward or buff was likely never part of the intention, but also fairly clearly important to the utility of the class given the server environment. Per my previous commentary on Dispels, a much more moderate alternative would be to set the max CL to 29. By previously outlined math, this would give Greater Dispel Magic at CL 20 a 5% chance to dispel a CL 29 Elixir.
Alternatively, G-Dispel could get the caster-level cap increased to 21, resulting in the same situation but also being viable against pure-caster buffs (a subtle but significant distinction).

This is still out of reach of UMD (which has G-Dispel at CL 15), while making epic caster enemies at least a glancing concern (moreso if they pack Mords), and preserving the majority of the utility for most brews.


If anyone has questions or would like to discuss directly on any of these points, feel free to DM me here or on Discord.

[Rhifox]

I have mentioned that NWN2 does not handle taking UMD skills correctly (per P&P it is a class-locked skill, not cross class).

UMD is only an exclusive skill in 3.0. In 3.5, it is an acceptable cross-class skill. What NWN2 does wrong is how you use it to access wands and items, though. You should have to roll a DC20 check every time you use a wand, and higher DCs to use class/race/alignment restricted items. I do agree it needs further discussion, though I sadly don't see it changing due to how long it's been in-game the way it is.

[Xorena]

The results of the finished products reflect that differential. Sales also require some understanding of what clients consider valuable, and dramatically limit what products may be made available for profit. Market knowledge is not without it's own effort. Nor is knowing how/where/who to sell to - but per above point, consignment removes that effort.

To add to this point, the consignment (aka Auction House) is limited to three posts per PC.

There is a considerable amount of effort that goes into figuring out what customers want when you enter a market. Here are all of the steps I take. I do this for potions, elixirs and to some extent wands.

1. Customers need to know an item is available and what it does, how it will benefit them.

If you look at the potions/elixirs my characters sell on the AH, they all come with descriptions of what they do. I do not use the stock descriptions (which are paltry at best). This means I have thought about the best way to describe a potion's abilities, and included that description of what it does for people who are not mechanically inclined. I use a utility to paste the description in (it takes time to type each letter so it's not instantaneous).

2. Marketing. I make sure each potion has a custom icon. It takes time to do this. I have a whole spreadsheet that lays out where each icon is on the icon changer so I select icons faster.

3. The potion/elixir makes the PC more effective. Some potions/elixirs are not good enough and it takes trial and error to figure this out. I made Nixie's Grace on a bard I have just to see what it would make, and I still haven't had anyone want to buy the five I made (This potion grants: +4 to each Dex, Cha and Wis, DR 5/cold iron, and low-light vision for 15 minutes. // cost without markup per elixir was 1,560 gold)

4. Price and competition. You want to make gold but not price it so high nobody will buy it. You have to consider a reasonable profit margin that also accounts for placing a stack of potions/elixirs up on the AH -- possibly more than once. The fee for the AH caps out at 5,000 gold and you pay it whether the item sells or not. If I have a stack of potions for sale for 55,000 gold, the bare-bones cost to create might be 40,000 gold. If nobody buys the potion then I need to put it up for sale again -- a total list fee of 10,000 gold. It is always cheaper to buy directly from the crafter than from Mudd. You need to consider competition as well. How much do you undercut by? Can you corner the market? Are you willing to drop prices below cost to drive them out of business (ruthless but I won't do it here).

It takes trial and error (time) to see what players will and will not buy, effort to market items for sale (custom icons and descriptions). You can only have three auctions up at once and it takes between 3-5 days for them to expire if you fail and you can try again or try something else.

I hope this helps you understand the effort it takes to run this type of in-game business successfully.