Rebuilding the RP in the Underdark - How are we doing it?

[Vallyn]

I think Bellados has a great story to tell about a young mage smack talking him.

Yes, I'm curious to hear how being flayed alive and disemboweled by Tsabrak of the Blood turned out as a result of that too. You simply don't summon Balors inside of the Gloura's Wings and threaten every occupant of the Inn with it and get away with it.

Hmm? Why should I not mention vacancies in response to a comment about priestesses in the UD?

Sorry man, I know that you're sadly personally hostile to us and all, but we play here too : (

Alright, so the thread I started is now not only a recruiting tool for your House, but is also going to serve as a breeding ground for personal attacks? Cut it out; don't call me sad and don't insinuate that I've got a personal grudge against Mori'hyanda or Noqu'afin.

Back on topic, please.

In Sshamathian society Noble Houses are barely above Orcs, Goblins, Duergar, Illithids, Beholders, Svirfneblin, and the other non-Drow races of the Underdark.

Most new players are ignorant of this and wrongly assume that this is a Lolthian city. Most old (non-House) players choose to be non-confrontational because it's easier than dealing with PvP in what would be a very lopsided fight if it came to true open hostility.

I'm trying to find a way to "rebuild" the Underdark.

If that means we all leave Sshamath, go to a "real" Drow city where Lolth dominates and we all have Houses and the House wars that go along with that, fine. If that's what players want (and apparently since most players are going to Houses) maybe that's what we should do?

If that means we have some kind of Event (and I hate to say DM event, for obvious reasons) about the Conclave and the Houses facing off, then fine...

However, what I'm tired of seeing is more and more people playing Noble House Drow in Sshamath and acting like they're superior in a city where they are barely above Gelatinous Cubes in terms of respect. If we're going to break the lore that bad, we may as well all become Drow Chaotic Good Rangers of Mielikki and go to the surface.

That's about how rare Noble House Drow are in Sshamath. There's one token member of Lolth's Yathrin on the Conclave Ruling Council itself (and she's not Mori or Noqua). She doesn't have a Qu'ellar in Sshamath either. She's got a little temple and a very small handful of Yathrin in a city of tens of thousands that is run by Wizards, and mostly male Wizards.

[Ansient]

Alright, so the thread I started is now not only a recruiting tool for your House, but is also going to serve as a breeding ground for personal attacks? Cut it out; don't call me sad and don't insinuate that I've got a personal grudge against Mori'hyanda or Noqu'afin.

I don't have to insinuate what's obvious to most people (and indeed you have personally attacked me in this thread), but this is not an appropriate thing to discuss openly, and you keep doing so.

I do not believe starting this thread means it should be tailored to your preferences; why can we discuss a new necromancy school but not what the houses are up to?

This is not a recruiting tool, it's just an open forum.

[broham1]

Those posting in this thread need to calm down.. If I have to lock another..there will be an IG response attached.

[magicshisha]

Alright, I think I'll chime in as well.

Some of you might know me as the player of Belados Noqu'afin, one of the very first drow on the server. I played him before the UD has been implemented and once it got in I decided to run something together with a few friends.

Basically the presence of Noqu'afins within Sshamath is not tied to a House in the traditional sense. The main residence of House Noqu'afin is in Guallidurth, also known as the capitol of Lolth, and what I have created in Sshamath is merely an outpost.
The purpose of this outpost in Sshamath is to recruit wizards for Guallidurth and the reason why this outpost has no matron is because, surprise surprise, it is no Qu'ellar.

Belados, being a wizard, has been made the outpost commander for political reasons. A wizard, leading an outpost, despite the Noqu'afin's house religion being Lolthian has several benefits in a city ruled by mages.
The conclave would hardly view the Noqu'afins as a threat.

Quite the contrary, in months of roleplay and DM interaction Belados has become the second in command of the school of Abjuration. He has collected and donated a total of 48 ingame books, completed several tasks for the Master of Abjuration Masoj Dhuunyl and finally assassinated his favourite student so he could fill in that role.

Now you could ask why a palemaster, such as Belados, isn't a member of the School of Necromancy instead and again the answer is: political reasons.

The school of Abjuration is responsible for the defense inside the city, they control the city guards and protect the entrances of Sshamath.


Now to the Balor summoning. I was under the impression that I explained it to you; I apologized and you accepted my apology, if I am not mistaken. But to sum it up again: The Balor summoning part was basically oocly. I was showing a friend of mine the server and since there were no epic spells on the server he used to play before, I summoned a Balor, not being aware of any other player characters in the tavern. Then I wanted to show this new player, that it is even possible to make them talk. You have chosen to react in character to it - which is perfectly fine. Though by doing so you left me little choice but to react to it in an IC way as well and I tried to roleplay with the little what I was given. I intended to petrify you after your pc called Belados an idiot, though in the middle of spellcasting I realized I did not set you to hostile, I interupted the spell, set you to hostile, forgot about the Balor and he auto-attacked you, slice & slash - you were dead.

But now I am asking you - would a drow lowbob, barely able to cast melf's acid arrow, who just witnessed a drow wizard summoning a Balor, call that guy an idiot? Would the drow you are playing, knowing in characterly that he has only one life be that ignorant? If Tsabrak decided to summon a Balor in a tavern - would your pc also call him an idiot? How did you know that the drow who summoned a Balor wasn't actually Tsabrak? Name tag floating above my head? Gotcha.

My guess is that people unintentionally metagame the lack of consequences for their actions when it comes to PVP. The players know they won't lose any xp and will get up after sixty seconds of coughing. So, with that in mind, they know they can say pretty much anything, talking smack and try to be badass.

On a side note: The server rules of Sshamath contradict the lore. Summoned creatures, animated objects, elementals, homunculi and even undead are nothing uncommon in Sshamath. You'd see lots of them running around and doing errands for their masters.


Now back to the Qu'ellar part. Why aren't more people playing wizards belonging to schools? Basically because there is nothing to roleplay about being a wizard in a school - as someone in this thread rightfully said the positions of one of the ten headhonchos who form the conclave are reserved for NPCs. As a player character, belonging to one of the schools, you are in no position of power and if you'd try to change anything you'd have to interact with a DM.
Now if you join a Qu'ellar like Mori'yhanda for instance, you're offered a complete, working, hierarchical structure entirely consisting of player characters. It is more dynamic, you can advance in house ranks, you get more interaction and thus RP, you have friends to travel with and who will back you up - it's simply more fun.

So unless the Staff decides to bestow player character wizards with more influential power in Sshamath for belonging to a school I don't think much will change and Qu'ellar RP will remain the more attractive option.


Those are my two firebolts cents.
-magicshisha

[Ansient]

Right...so, setting the personal nonsense aside.

In Sshamath Lolthites are not "barely above" the lesser races. They are simply uncommon and out of power.

Most new players learn that Sshamath is a non-Lolthian city awfully quick. Some of them play immigrants and persist in their Lolthian ways. Occasionally (and I've seen this happen maybe twice) a new player will try something they shouldn't be able to get away with, and learn from their mistake.

Almost all neutral and evil-aligned drow, even Vhaeraunites, at least pay some lip service to the Spider Queen, and they do not treat her followers as "barely above Gelatinous Cubes". In fact they treat them with just enough respect so as to not seem insulting,, but not so much that it's of any practical consequence. After all, they have little to no power in Sshamath.

There are some characters, such as Vallyn, who for background reasons have developed some sort of visceral hatred for Lolthites. These are the exception and not the rule. Most simply don't care all that much, they're just interested in where the real power is (wizardry)

Lolthites are monitored by the political police to make sure they don't develop into a threat to the established arcane order, but are otherwise considered ordinary citizens and have their uses just like other non-wizards.

[Eviloth]

Ideally though I do wish there was some way to maybe motivate lowbies to at least IC respect their better. I think maybe a small form of PvP exp penalty might do the trick.

example:

1st level Necromancer named Fred comes up to Amon. Hey Amon, you suck! Hahaha......I'll just regenerate!

Now mind you, I have learned that mages can actually deal with this situation a tad bit better. Level drain and ability score damage. That tends to make them not want to piss off a mage, because resting doesn't resolve those I believe.

Well I Have 5 more levels til crippling strike.

Do the DM have an issue with instituting an exp penalty for PvP? Potentially maybe just a small one, even.

I believe this would help redirect RP back to more of a quasi reality in the fantasy realm. Damn, I hope that made sense.

[mar3usmc]

Now mind you, I have learned that mages can actually deal with this situation a tad bit better. Level drain and ability score damage. That tends to make them not want to piss off a mage, because resting doesn't resolve those I believe.

LOL, I can't comment on some of the things on this thread yet, but yea I told Eviloth that is what I do to PCs who are low level who talk way too much shit when they obviously know I am more powerful then thier entire group combined IC. The magical wards that last forever ussually give it away. ((I have come back on hours later with them still there ))

As for the School of Necromancy recruiting, there is a incomplete thread for that. It gets into some of the ranking and structure of the school, I still need to complete the internal structure.

Also, nobody said that your PC couldn't gain a seat on the Conclave. BUT, in doing so your PC would be NPCed. Jinx and I have discussed this, so it is ...possible, but expect it to be very difficult and of course once achieved the loss of that PC, and everything that goes with him. I am not sure if you would be able to sign on with him during events with DM oversight or whatnot, but yea, if you are a council member, then you are an NPC.

ok, gots more to do for the UD. Talk to yall later

[Amal'launim]

You do not need to give an OOC out. You need to give an IC one.

Subject: PvP Rules and Guidelines - MUST READ

PvP Rules and Guidelines

Full PvP only upon first being roleplayed!

***There always has to be a Role Played reason!!!***
***Setting hostile is a must!!!***

• Always allow a person a Role Play OUT of a situation. Role-playing to show hostility is something that should generally be done before an attack on a PC (familiars and companions count as that). This could be something like *Draws sword* , *Grabs the hilt of his sword*, *Grips his staff tightly* or other phrases that show hostility, annoyance, anger or suspicion to allow the player you are interacting with to understand the situation is going towards PvP. This gives the other person a chance to use an IC (In-Character) action to avoid PvP with an OUT (flee, surrender, apologize, try and change the subject, divert etc.).[/list

Sshamath is a drow city unlike any other. But it is a drow city. Power is power, and House Mori'hyanda is not powerful because it's favoured by Lolth or because it holds political influence. The House is powerful because it's powerful in and by itself. You do not walk up to a powerful organisation, insult or attack them, and think they won't retaliate. If you have the power to resist direct attacks (like the Conclave or Charnaeg) then sure, knock yourself out.

Saying that Houses is lower than a citizen is... A bit odd. A House is a large group of citizens combined, which surely makes it more powerful than any one citizen in Sshamath? It's not a political powerhouse of influential in the city affairs, but that doesn't mean it's not powerful in and by itself.

[mar3usmc]

Given the rules, OOC should trump RP, and you need to OOC "warn" someone that the IC path will lead to violence, which should happen a lot, on a society of sociopaths.

So! I will post here what will likely happen if you, reading this, put yourselves on Sladariel Noqu'afin's path:

Random Drow: You Noqu'afin bitch boy!
Sladariel: ((OOC: You have five seconds to run or I will kill you. That is your OOC Out))
Random Drow: ((Whut? Huh? You can't kill me! Im a citizen of - *Spits blood as he gets his throat slit*

Actually, you don't need to OOC warn them, although some do to prevent hurt feelings or whatever. If it were I in that situation it would go more like this.

Random Drow: Amon sucks balls
Amon: *looks at the drow with a sly evil grin, and vanishes into the ethereal plane*, follows said drow for a bit until in the caves or in an alley, *the black sharp cold wind blows* ((that his out, give him 6 seconds to get his butt running)). Then I use some nasty means of disabling him, see if I can dominate him, if so I take him back to the school, if not I kill him and curse, level drain, and desease him as soon as he "recovers" so the effects stay.

If I get him back at the school, I will hopefully have a DM there for supervision at this point, I begin to brutally torture him with the most horrific means I can think of. I will also end up taking a bit of his soul out of him, add it to my collection, and if he likes, it can be a DM event perhaps later for him to somehow to retrieve it. Until then he is down 1000xp.

THAT, is how you deal with such situations. No sshamath laws were broken, at least not in plain site, not that any gaurd would have cared if Amon did so if they heard what he said. Amon is Lawful Evil, so I sort of need to play him like that. He respects the few laws of Sshamath, as he benifits from them.

OK, NOW I MUST GO

[Ansient]

As for the School of Necromancy recruiting, there is a incomplete thread for that. It gets into some of the ranking and structure of the school, I still need to complete the internal structure.

Also, nobody said that your PC couldn't gain a seat on the Conclave. BUT, in doing so your PC would be NPCed. Jinx and I have discussed this, so it is ...possible, but expect it to be very difficult and of course once achieved the loss of that PC, and everything that goes with him. I am not sure if you would be able to sign on with him during events with DM oversight or whatnot, but yea, if you are a council member, then you are an NPC.

This goes back to what I was saying earlier:

I think it would be great if DMs or a group of players in the know would formally spell out all the highest positions available to PCs, organized some kind of ranking system underpinning the Conclave NPCs, and helped run a player-driven "guild" of sorts around it.

Basically I think Sshamath being run by NPCs is something we need to "get over". That's just the top. We might refer to them occasionally, but there's almost no interaction there. It shouldn't be standing in the way of player-driven stuff.

Up till now, sadly, it has--because no one has stepped in to create a lower framework. This is probably the single biggest RP problem with Sshamath as it stands currently.

It would be easy for Belados to just say that he's second in command of the Abjuration school, but he actually accomplished that back when there were more DMed events for such things. It's easy for me to claim that Istinid is a master in the School of Mages and teaches some classes there. But what does this really mean in practice? How should other characters regard ours, other than the basic respect afforded master wizards in Sshamath? How did and do we advance? How do those beneath us advance? What power and responsibilities do we really have?

I don't know, and until player guilds like this Necromancy school kick off I don't know how I'd find out.

[raetin]

Lets read some laws: http://bgtscc.fomwaa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=428

1. There should not be any open violence in Sshamath. Period. This is true even in a Llothite city (where members of a house are concerned). I don't get why people think that is ok here.

The conclave has a city to run and trade to encourage, how does allowing people to beat up on each other work in that context? It doesn't. You can't do it because the normal citizens of Sshamath can't either. Evil or not.

2. It is silly to assume low level equals no power. Lowbies have no obligation to "respect their betters" because many times, you are not their betters. A lowbie in the Charnag is many times more dangerous than an epic loner.

Your station matters, and in the scheme of Sshamath, almost no one has station. Members of the Charnag and (apparently) Belados being exceptions. Other houses/organizations are not an exception.

3. If you want to kill someone, do so in a remote place. Hunt them down in the tunnels.

*the black sharp cold wind blows* ((that his out, give him 6 seconds to get his butt running))

No no no! Please be more obvious than that. "Better start running little boy/girl," or *you hear the distinct sound of a sword being drawn.* Also, if they start running, make sure you don't provide chase. Otherwise it isn't an out.

Honestly, I'm only semi comfortable with that in the spirit of the rules. It would be best if you just give them an out when they insult you in the first place. For example, "start walking or we'll meet in the tunnels."

We ask you guys to do this stuff so that we don't have to hear the whining and complaining about it later. Please help us out? Please?

[Eviloth]

Raetin,

I dont' think any of us agree that there should be killing in town. My situations merely happend in the the Passage.

Low levels equals no power...I don't think anyone said that. Yet, if we have issues where lowbies know how to exploit the server rules, such as not RP any fear of a 30 lvl Necromancer, then it becomes a problem. This is a RP server, so I assume we also want people to understand that they should RP that aspect of their character. Not that when people see pc's like Amon, do they see a floating 30th level over there heads, but ususally if Amon chooses to show himself to you, he is lit up like a Christmas Tree with all of the magic.

How much hand holding though are people to do with people in a PvP? Should we ask them for permission? Hey would you let me please attack your guy for insulting my House, or Goddess? I can understand inside the city limits, but let's take this scenerio outside of Town.

The UD is set to Hardcore settings, correct? I just wish more of the lowbies that start here would understand there RP needs to be more HARDcore as well.

I am not flaming anyone by my comments here, I just think that if you play a drow/or UD race, deal with the fact that DROW tend to be egotistical and chaotic, even in such a business like town of Sshamath.

Raetin can you answer my question though on the PvP exp loss?

[Brian]

There will never be xp loss from pvp. The wailing and tears would never end. They are already almost endless when there are NO CONSEQUENCES to conflict.

[raetin]

Eviloth,

City:
I saw a few posts implying attacking within the city limits is ok. I think most people know it isn't, but it is something that needs to be nipped in the bud real quick. Maybe I misinterpreted, apologies if I did.

Lowbies:

Ideally though I do wish there was some way to maybe motivate lowbies to at least IC respect their better.

That implies Lowbies have no power, or at least far less power than you. You must also understand that you technically don't know someone is a Lowbie. They might be a level 30 fighter. Or a level 30 wizard with their defenses down. Until you see them fight, you don't really know.

They also don't know how powerful you are. To a normal fighter, all wizards are going to look alike in terms of spells past level 14-16. The staff removed the ability to tell an opponent's strength from the examine for just that reason.

If you call forth a Balor, ok, now you are showing you've got some power.

Still, your level means nothing. Your RP means everything. A level 1 member of the Charnag has every right to snub their nose at an epic non-drow, for example. To do any less would invite their own death and/or hamper their own career.

Remember, just as you said:

if you play a drow/or UD race, deal with the fact that DROW tend to be egotistical and chaotic, even in such a business like town of Sshamath.

That applies to dealing with egotistical lowbies as well. Deal with it.

You are in a city full of tough guys and gals. Your level does not earn fear, your reputation does. Build it. Build it by teaching your reputation to those that don't know it. Worry less about other's RP, and build your own. If you feel your character would be pissed about how they are being treated, do something about it IC next time (like I said "Start walking or I will find you in the dark places of the underdark", or something less cheesy than what I can come up with )

PvP:
Give them an IC out, or if you can't for some reason, an OOC out will get by too (IC always better).

For example,
Random drow: Amon is a big meaniehead!
Amon: You vile, filthy, rothe! Apologize to me and scamper away to whatever hole you crawled out of or I will make your life very difficult, and very short. *eyes the random drow with burning anger while running a finger over his dagger's blade*

Outcome 1:
Random drow: Oh, I'm so sorry, you are obviously a very nice person! *runs away*
*finished!*

Outcome 2:
Random drow: Oh, please! Your socks smell funny!
Amon: *growls and steps forward, but sees a guard and steps back* You should pray we do not cross paths outside the city.
*10 minutes later, in the tunnels, a random drow bursts into flame while Amon laughs maniacally*

Outcome 3 (Conversation not occurring in the city):
*a random drow bursts into flame while Amon laughs maniacally*

XP loss from PvP:
The staff discussed it at length, there will be no XP loss. We don't have player applications, and can't trust random people that log in and never read the forums to not run around and completely abuse such a thing.

Honestly, we all also feel player's emotions tend to run too hot where PvP is concerned already. It seems like the last thing we need are people getting super extra pissed + losing xp. The result of that is annoying for the DMs that have to deal with it.

There will be something else, however, that makes the death sting a little. I'm going to let it be announced when finished, however. Suffice to say you will be able to make the loser go away, and they will take a little time to recover from the loss.

[Eviloth]

Well Raetin, your example did make me laugh. I think you put a lot of time into the different scenarios. Thanks.