Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2021)

[YYA]

Well, in my opinion it should instead work with Augment Form and get the bonus AC from transmutation spell focus, since it is an polymorph effect, and perhaps have an easier way to dispel it on demand. (I have not used it in forever.)

Anyhow, Hoihe did mention that he tried to drink a potion of Heal with the spell active, which likely failed because of the Spell Failure this spell has. From the perspectice of game mechanics, it could be that he wasn't drinking a potion, but instead using an item to cast the 'Heal' spell on himself. Not to mention that with the Augment Form feat, and the change that lets you Polymorph in and out of shape, why would anyone make use of this particular spell? It is not useless, I can come up with plenty of uses for it, but sometimes gishes need to rebuff -- and as someone who used Polymorph and Shapechange before the change -- throwing away good spells to recast buffs is the worst.

And anyhow, if your character has that BAB 21, you get +9 AB form this spell, +1 from Haster, +5 from Greater Magic Weapon, +4 from Greater Heroism, and you are already pretty close to the cap of 20. So if you teamup with a Bard for Inspire Courage, your AB is not going to increase by much at all. Where as a more dedicated gish in the BAB sense, will get lesser of a boost and likely benefit more from that Bardic Inspiration.

Oh, and if you finally return to the change that needs to be done... You might be able to do it with few edits to the code. Either by slashing out the bit with Spell Failure as a comment, or by wrapping it within some if clauses.


But anyhow, removing Arcane Spell Failure does nothing if the spell still retains Spell Failure. Two different things for the game engine.

[DaloLorn]

YYA, have you considered the possibility that Matelener misspoke, and that the change you are demanding is exactly the change he's implemented?

[matelener]

My math's capping out at 57, actually:

10 base + 8 natural + 10 Shield + 6 base DEX + 2 enhanced DEX (if item or Cat's Grace) + 3 Tumble + 4 Armor (if arcanist or AC item) + 4 Deflection (if AC item, or Halo of Sand UMD/elixir, else slightly less if natural caster with Halo of Sand) + 4 Natural (if AC item) + 6 ICE.

In theory, none of that AC needs to come from dispellable sources. Allowing for dispellable AC, we can get IMA (possibly self-cast if we're an arcanist, though that'll definitely dispel in a hurry) and Tortoise Shell for another +2 Armor and +5 Natural AC, for a buffed maximum of 63 AC.

NERF SHIFTER!!11

If Transmutation foci also apply to Shifter shapes (I think they don't, but I'm not sure it's been explicitly denied), then a Red Transmuter with Epic Transmutation and ICE could bump that up to as high as 69 with only two external buffs.

Transmutation focus line works just as it is described - with either Polymorph or Shapechange spells and nothing else.

On another note, something that just occurred to me... If we get new shapes later on, how (if at all) will we be able to swap our old shapes out? We're not going to have to RCR for it, are we?

The new batch of shapes will likely be only available to non-druids. When the time comes, I'll have to think about what's the best way to do that. There is a chance they will be available only as Epic Feats (to counter-weight Epic Druidic forms) and RCR or de-level will be necessary.

(Another another note: Would this be a good time to implement unarmed RP variants for the various Polymorph/Shapechange options? Or maybe an ability to equip/unequip our new form's weapon? )

I'll add a command that will let you hide (delete) the weapon and another to switch on/off weapons in general.

[TheKai]

Thats a helluva lot of work. Thank you!

[DaloLorn]

My math's capping out at 57, actually:

10 base + 8 natural + 10 Shield + 6 base DEX + 2 enhanced DEX (if item or Cat's Grace) + 3 Tumble + 4 Armor (if arcanist or AC item) + 4 Deflection (if AC item, or Halo of Sand UMD/elixir, else slightly less if natural caster with Halo of Sand) + 4 Natural (if AC item) + 6 ICE.

In theory, none of that AC needs to come from dispellable sources. Allowing for dispellable AC, we can get IMA (possibly self-cast if we're an arcanist, though that'll definitely dispel in a hurry) and Tortoise Shell for another +2 Armor and +5 Natural AC, for a buffed maximum of 63 AC.

NERF SHIFTER!!11

In all fairness, that's only a few points of AC higher than some builds I've made in the past. Discord logs say I projected Kana and Jando at 53 and 52 unbuffed AC, respectively, and I estimate Amaetha's new build could self-buff to a similar figure with Owl's Insight. The big gamechangers here are the combination of high AC, high (B)AB and damage, mountains of HP, and Fortitude/Reflex saves so high they can only be hit with Will or saveless effects... but those can all theoretically be neutralized by select Will spells from the divine and arcane spellbooks.

I'd hate to be up against a drow/svirfneblin shifter, though...

Edit: Projections for Amaetha's maximum AC at level 30, since I brought her up:

Hidden: show

10 base
+2 Cat's Grace or equivalent item
+1 Monk
+8 WIS
+2 WIS item (you know, for the spell slots)
+10 Owl's Insight
+4 Halo of Sand or equivalent Deflection item
+4 Armor item
+4 Dodge item
+9 Tortoise Shell
+6 ICE (not actually in the build, but I do have two epic feat slots I could hypothetically use for that)

= 60 AC just from her own buffs. Adding external buffs, this goes up to

+2 Armor
+4 Shield

= 66 AC, three points higher than my theoretical maximum for a level 20 Owlbear.

The downside is that at least 21 of that AC is subject to Disjunctions, versus the Owlbear's 7, her CON and regeneration are a lot lower, and her attacks are a lot softer in both AB and damage unless she sacrifices up to 25 AC for the offensive superiority of her massively limited wildshapes. (Her best shapes come from Magical Beast, so if I'm reading the wiki correctly, she could expect to reclaim about 10-15 AC, landing somewhere in the 50-55 range if she had ICE, or 56-61 if she had arcane buffs on top.)

The upside is that she's a Hierophant druidess capable of casting some of the highest-DC spells on the server (only mitigated by her lack of spell focus feats and racial WIS), summoning hordes of creatures to cover her retreat, or healing herself for massive chunks of her HP pool at a time. She also has unlimited access to CL30 Premonitions and Storm Avatars, which should allow her to survive long enough to dash out of range at speeds that can only truly be matched by another hasted level 6+ monk.

(On another note, I only just now realized that RCR dropped a 20% XP penalty on her for the remaining 12 levels of her progression... )

If Transmutation foci also apply to Shifter shapes (I think they don't, but I'm not sure it's been explicitly denied), then a Red Transmuter with Epic Transmutation and ICE could bump that up to as high as 69 with only two external buffs.

Transmutation focus line works just as it is described - with either Polymorph or Shapechange spells and nothing else.

Got it.

On another note, something that just occurred to me... If we get new shapes later on, how (if at all) will we be able to swap our old shapes out? We're not going to have to RCR for it, are we?

The new batch of shapes will likely be only available to non-druids. When the time comes, I'll have to think about what's the best way to do that. There is a chance they will be available only as Epic Feats (to counter-weight Epic Druidic forms) and RCR or de-level will be necessary.

My first thought would be a new option for the Spellswapper Djinni. Rhifox shot the notion down when I half-seriously suggested it for cleric domains, but with a limited inventory of feats to swap between, each of which currently seems to have the same requirements (and more importantly, is fully self-contained, without any side effects to removing one of them)... it could be doable.

(Another another note: Would this be a good time to implement unarmed RP variants for the various Polymorph/Shapechange options? Or maybe an ability to equip/unequip our new form's weapon? )

I'll add a command that will let you hide (delete) the weapon and another to switch on/off weapons in general.

My shifter and my drow both thank you.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

I have a sudden question, would EDM work with the forms? (if you use it prior to shifting)

[mrm3ntalist]

I really like the turn X creature that some domains have. That is a great addition. Will existing clerics get the additional feats or an RCR is going to be needed?

[AsuraKing]

It's taking longer than expected. We'll see if we can get an extension on the 100% RCR to give clerics a chance to use it.

As for a list, here you go!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Some disclaimers: Spells/feats are mostly complete, some things may have small changes before implementation, but not too many.

Deity-Domain list should not be considered final as deliberation is still ongoing. List on left is more-or-less guaranteed and based mostly on canon domains, yellow list is likely additions but still need approval, red list is most likely cut for this update (but could be added in the future). Attempts are being made where possible to keep strong domains even with gods that don't have them canonically, but some gods will likely lose some domains where they can't be justified at all (so many random Luck domains). Other gods will gain domains.

Oh, and archfiend clerics are still up in the air.

OOoooo! This is fantastic thank you! Thanks for all your hard worn on this Rhi!

[Steve]

What happens when 2 months from now a player logs in for the first time since the Domains are changed, and they have an “illegal” build? Will they be prompted to re-pick, or will they need DM intervention to get out the Nexus?

[matelener]

I have a sudden question, would EDM work with the forms? (if you use it prior to shifting)

I think it's going to work but it'll be downscaled similarly to EW, judging how there are builds out there with 30 CHA = +20 divine damage per hit and can EDM for days.

Consider it to be working at half the efficiency. Still a great way to build Shifter but won't be as silly.

[mrm3ntalist]

Will there be a way for the shapes to get different "weapon" materials ie Silver, Cold iron, Adamantine. Either by a shifter shapes "weapon" properties or more ideally by mechanics (ie inherit the weapon type of the equipped weapon material ) or by a feat or by a combination of both - ie getting a feat that allows you to inherit the equipped weapon material

If there is no way to inherit it then the shifters will have big problems against monster with big DR against certain types.

[matelener]

Will there be a way for the shapes to get different "weapon" materials ie Silver, Cold iron, Adamantine. Either by a shifter shapes "weapon" properties or more ideally by mechanics (ie inherit the weapon type of the equipped weapon material ) or by a feat or by a combination of both - ie getting a feat that allows you to inherit the equipped weapon material

If there is no way to inherit it then the shifters will have big problems against monster with big DR against certain types.

Yeah, that's going to be one of the main weaknesses of the shifter but little can be done. Just gotta power through, similarly to monks. Werewolf's bleed bypasses DR if you want to chip away at things.

[mrm3ntalist]

Will there be a way for the shapes to get different "weapon" materials ie Silver, Cold iron, Adamantine. Either by a shifter shapes "weapon" properties or more ideally by mechanics (ie inherit the weapon type of the equipped weapon material ) or by a feat or by a combination of both - ie getting a feat that allows you to inherit the equipped weapon material

If there is no way to inherit it then the shifters will have big problems against monster with big DR against certain types.

Yeah, that's going to be one of the main weaknesses of the shifter but little can be done. Just gotta power through, similarly to monks. Werewolf's bleed bypasses DR if you want to chip away at things.

Monks at least get Adamantine fists

Anyway, maybe the DR of mobs/bosses should be revisited and lowered since without the correct weapon you have to resort to things like EDM, Magic damage etc

[matelener]

Will there be a way for the shapes to get different "weapon" materials ie Silver, Cold iron, Adamantine. Either by a shifter shapes "weapon" properties or more ideally by mechanics (ie inherit the weapon type of the equipped weapon material ) or by a feat or by a combination of both - ie getting a feat that allows you to inherit the equipped weapon material

If there is no way to inherit it then the shifters will have big problems against monster with big DR against certain types.

Yeah, that's going to be one of the main weaknesses of the shifter but little can be done. Just gotta power through, similarly to monks. Werewolf's bleed bypasses DR if you want to chip away at things.

Monks at least get Adamantine fists

Anyway, maybe the DR of mobs/bosses should be revisited and lowered since without the correct weapon you have to resort to things like EDM, Magic damage etc

I don't think there are that many adamantium DR bosses but let's keep it in mind.

[mrm3ntalist]

I don't think there are that many adamantium DR bosses but let's keep it in mind.

White Dragon, Opponents that cast Ethereal visage, Stoneskin and Gr, Stone body ( Frost King), Premonition - Obviously some can be bypassed over time (spells) but considering that when shifted you will not have access to umd or consumables it becomes problematic over time

Between bosses needing different weapon damage types and weapon types, in addition to not being able to use consumables and umd to at least make up for some damage or sustain, shifter builds will have serious problems end-game and will only have the cool effect going