Theorycrafting: Shifter

[The_Sorting_Hat]

Did anyone figure out yet if Shifter with Dragon Form or Magical Animal or whichever non-shifter form will get the Shifter bonuses (shield AC and so forth) in those forms?

[Steve]

Did anyone figure out yet if Shifter with Dragon Form or Magical Animal or whichever non-shifter form will get the Shifter bonuses (shield AC and so forth) in those forms?

I doubt it, since Shifter forms, Wild Shape forms, polymorph/shapechange (Spells) forms all have differences.

[Terankar]

They would make sense to work, outside of the stats part, as they do not have spells and if so, that they do not, then I would think they should.

[The_Sorting_Hat]

Seems pretty pointless to pick up the epic animal, elemental and dragon forms to me, since they don't get any of the shifter stuff...

[YYA]

Well, if I could ignore the lack of player hostility on this server, I would make an Aasimar Druid 6/Blackguard 4/Shifter 20 that was the follower of Malar. I would get Natural Spell, Divine Might, Divine Shield, and Epic Divine Might -- so the build would end up with 21 strength, and 21+ in charisma (the more the better). Epic Divine Might for extra damage, Divine Shield for extra AC when needed, and Flame Weapon to get extra 1d8 Fire damage on your Werewolf claws, which can also induce bleeding. The Werewolf form would be the center piece of all roleplay, you are a beast of Malar. So, send a tell to players in the same area asking if they consent to being attacked or hunted by a beast of Malar.

[DaloLorn]

Well, if I could ignore the lack of player hostility on this server, I would make an Aasimar Druid 6/Blackguard 4/Shifter 20 that was the follower of Malar. I would get Natural Spell, Divine Might, Divine Shield, and Epic Divine Might -- so the build would end up with 21 strength, and 21+ in charisma (the more the better). Epic Divine Might for extra damage, Divine Shield for extra AC when needed, and Flame Weapon to get extra 1d8 Fire damage on your Werewolf claws, which can also induce bleeding. The Werewolf form would be the center piece of all roleplay, you are a beast of Malar. So, send a tell to players in the same area asking if they consent to being attacked or hunted by a beast of Malar.

That sounds pretty fun!

[Terankar]

Why would you take natural spell with no spells available?

Divine might and shield is a feat and will or should not be available during shapeshift

[TheKai]

Why would you take natural spell with no spells available?

Divine might and shield is a feat and will or should not be available during shapeshift

Use it before you shift, like spell buffs

[Terankar]

That is a good way to go about it, but just seems like a mechanical workaround rather than actual part of the character.

[YYA]

Why would you take natural spell with no spells available?

Divine might and shield is a feat and will or should not be available during shapeshift

I apologize if I missed it but what about natural spell in forms?

It will work but I think you can pick Natural Spell only on a druid level

I believe it was stated that Natural Spell would work with the Shfiter Forms, thus allowing you to cast the level two "Flame Weapon" or "Frost Weapon" on your claws. These spells last 60 seconds per caster level, so with just 6 caster levels you can get potentially up to 6 minutes of use per spell cast, which goes up to 10 minutes with Practiced Spell Caster feat, and that could be doubled to 20 minutes with the Extend spell feat.

Alternatively, you could spend your 3rd level spell slots on Thorn Skin, which would give you +1d4 piercing damage for either 6 or 10 rounds. As for other notable spells, there is Briar Web, Pass Without Trace for a minor stealh skill boost as you probably lack the item bonuses, and even Longstrider could see some potential use as method of catching up to a fleeing prey.

As for Divine Might and Shield, those do not attach their effects on any particular item, and therefore you can 'cast them' before shifting into the desired form to get the most out of them. You will have to get out of form to re-apply, which will in all due likelihood throw away your cast of Flame or Frost Weapon, and the more rounds you spend casting spells, the more rounds you will burn away from your Divine Might and Shield. Thus if you can prepare yourself to a short fight, you can be a force to be reckoned with. But in more general terms, you are just going to cast Flame or Frost Weapon on yourself, and then use Longstrider to get away if things get too hairy.

Oh, and as for stock NWN2 spells, level one has Camouflage, which grants the target +10 to Hide checks. Good for sneaking about. First level also has Lesser Vigor, and the third level has have acess to Vigor, which can provide you some extra regeneration before the one provided by Shifter PRC kicks in.

So once again, against a fight you can prepare yourself, such a character is quite literally a beast. But outside, it is just a regular strong build.

And yeah, Natural spell is necessary, and the game will force you to start with 11 in wisdom as a first level druid, but I think it would be safer to start with at least 13 wisdom on a non-Aasimar, and possibly with 15 on Aasimar proper to avoid spell slot loss during shifting. The way the game does it is that when you shift you basically polymorph into a base creature that lacks your racial bonus, which drops out spells. The wiki mentions how this should have been fixed, but I have not tried it myself. So, take it with some grains of salt.

[Terankar]

Why would you take natural spell with no spells available?

Divine might and shield is a feat and will or should not be available during shapeshift

I apologize if I missed it but what about natural spell in forms?

It will work but I think you can pick Natural Spell only on a druid level

I believe it was stated that Natural Spell would work with the Shfiter Forms, thus allowing you to cast the level two "Flame Weapon" or "Frost Weapon" on your claws. These spells last 60 seconds per caster level, so with just 6 caster levels you can get potentially up to 6 minutes of use per spell cast, which goes up to 10 minutes with Practiced Spell Caster feat, and that could be doubled to 20 minutes with the Extend spell feat.

Alternatively, you could spend your 3rd level spell slots on Thorn Skin, which would give you +1d4 piercing damage for either 6 or 10 rounds. As for other notable spells, there is Briar Web, Pass Without Trace for a minor stealh skill boost as you probably lack the item bonuses, and even Longstrider could see some potential use as method of catching up to a fleeing prey.

As for Divine Might and Shield, those do not attach their effects on any particular item, and therefore you can 'cast them' before shifting into the desired form to get the most out of them. You will have to get out of form to re-apply, which will in all due likelihood throw away your cast of Flame or Frost Weapon, and the more rounds you spend casting spells, the more rounds you will burn away from your Divine Might and Shield. Thus if you can prepare yourself to a short fight, you can be a force to be reckoned with. But in more general terms, you are just going to cast Flame or Frost Weapon on yourself, and then use Longstrider to get away if things get too hairy.

Oh, and as for stock NWN2 spells, level one has Camouflage, which grants the target +10 to Hide checks. Good for sneaking about. First level also has Lesser Vigor, and the third level has have acess to Vigor, which can provide you some extra regeneration before the one provided by Shifter PRC kicks in.

So once again, against a fight you can prepare yourself, such a character is quite literally a beast. But outside, it is just a regular strong build.

And yeah, Natural spell is necessary, and the game will force you to start with 11 in wisdom as a first level druid, but I think it would be safer to start with at least 13 wisdom on a non-Aasimar, and possibly with 15 on Aasimar proper to avoid spell slot loss during shifting. The way the game does it is that when you shift you basically polymorph into a base creature that lacks your racial bonus, which drops out spells. The wiki mentions how this should have been fixed, but I have not tried it myself. So, take it with some grains of salt.

Thank you for the extra post. I found it very informative in terms of setting into perspective.

I honestly think that human is the best fit for the shifter due to the extra feat. It really opens up the possibilities.

[joleda]

So it appears that Druid has a mechanical advantage over Wizard, Sorcerer, and Spirit Shaman due to Natural Spell. Druid has another advantage over Sorcerer and Spirit Shaman in that Druid only requires 5 levels, while Sorcerer and Spirit Shaman require 6. Any non-roleplay reason to take Sorcerer or Spirit Shaman?

[Kalgain]

If you want shifter 20 you only have one additional class choice besides your divine spellcasting class and shifter anyway. Spirit shaman 6 / other class 4 / shifter 20 might be one of the best options since spirit shaman gives you alertness for free.

[Kalgain]

Has anybody experience with powerbuilding a dragon druid? How does an optimized dragon druid compare against the shifter?

dragon has a higher str than the shifter shapes which offsets the medium bab, higher base nat ac which compensates the shield bonus, higher dr, regeneration spell is stronger than shifter regeneration, dragon companion and spells.

Did I miss something or is dragon druid much stronger than shifter?

[DaloLorn]

Druids are very likely stronger at tanking and killing things, yes. Their main disadvantages compared to shifters are a lack of versatility (they can cast their limited supply of DC spells, they can buff their party, and they can smash things, whereas a shifter can blast things with magic, move around really quick, passively see through invisibility, or turn a whole party invisible), and the need to unload a ton of spells onto themselves to do what a shifter is passively capable of.

However, the greater STR modifier of a dragon druid isn't that much greater. The shifter will still have a higher AB, and they'll probably have a high enough BAB to get an extra attack over the druid.