Should we lessen restrictions on the Underdark? [Poll]

[Rhifox]

2. if you need to come to a place that you are KoS to get your RP fix, and you are starved for RP, then why not make a surface character to RP as?

Why should they? Underdark characters bring a lot of interesting RP to the table.

3. the general 'safe' area that has been abused to hell and back again by UD is the shrine of Eldath in the Reaching Woods, where veiled threats, taunts, etc are made because its a shrine to peace and therefor no blood should be shed there, so people use it to troll and try to force a reaction from other people. Making more 'safe' areas for UD people will likely only increase that. "I'm Evil, I'm a drow, I taunt you, but because you follow your silly surface laws, you can't do anything about it Blows Razzberries" isn't exactly compelling RP, and I fear that is what the 'safe' areas will turn into, "I am going to be mean and insulting as an evil character, and you can't touch me, because I will just teleport out after saying all these horrible things and spreading horrible lies about people and just slip away out of your reach." Just gets annoying rather then compelling.

Plenty of people do this, not just drow. And there's no 'silly surface laws' in the north, where drow would be.

Plus if you are evil and want to make deals with other evil factions, taking away the clandestine meetings in deep caves, just to be able to show up to the bar in sobar and talk about such plots openly is sort of 'meh' as well.

People already do this. Also IMO, paladins should be the ones showing up in Soubar in cloak and hood, not drow. Drow fit the aesthetic and theme of Soubar, knights in shining armor don't, yet they keep coming by all the same.

5. If you are choosing a Monster Race to play, and you are by basically playing any UD character that goes to the surface, don't be surprised at your lack of RP. The same should be said of Surfacer's going to the UD for RP, you are the monster down there, they are the residents.

The north is not Baldur's Gate. Soubar has a mindflayer vendor, werewolves, wererats. Uruk Lurra is black orcs and mountain orcs. Corm Orp and Darkhold are Zhentarim. There is no reason why drow should be any more KOS in the north than anyone else living there. Heck, like I said above, good-aligned PCs should be more KOS than drow in most of the north.

The more we can do to make the north an openly dark-aligned area, the better.

Obviously, there's more work to be done for that. The south needs more epic areas to encourage good-aligned PCs to do their hunting on server 1. The north needs more leveling areas to make it easier for newbie team evil to level up efficiently. But that's a development thing, not a rules thing. I think, now that we have a two-server solution in place, we should really be take advantage of the culture that's already been developing where north is the realm of team evil and south is the realm of team good.

As I posted on discord, it should IMO work like this:

Underdark (surfacers KOS) -- Upperdark (no KOS, or global KOS) -- Surface, North (no KOS, or global KOS) -- Surface, South (underdarkers KOS)

Then ensure both sides have plenty of necessary content. Heck, I wouldn't mind even just copy pasting dungeons. There's no reason every troll cave has to have a completely different layout. It's not like immersion would be broken any more than it already is with the 'I know exactly where everything is and kill the chieftan on a daily basis!'.

[Shadowspinner70]

As a player, I say yes.

There's been RP and history of drow PCs among other races in Soubar, Roaringshore, and Darkhold, among anywhere else I forgot. There have been several alliances, long histories, and all that jazz.

When it comes to PvP, has anyone ever considered that most RP centers around BG and that this would only apply to server 2? Has anyone considered simply enforcing our current PvP rules? Just because people do it doesn't mean it's okay. Just because it's more prolific means that people get away with rule breaks more often because there isn't enough evidence, for example, or as another example, rules weren't broken.

And genuinely, for everyone who is so afraid of rule-breakers of PvP and PvP in general, why not just ban it? The Underdark won't be a risk to all of you if PvP is banned, just your sensibilities.

Rule-breaking PvP, cast that out. Report it. It causes so much less paperwork than the actual drama when people don't report it, assuming it doesn't become a back and forth. PvP in general,this server has such a competitive mindset with both RP and PvP.

Also, in regards to Eldath's shrine, hi. I can save a nice, long explanation for Aunrae's motives with this: FOIC. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's trolling and doesn't have very legitimate IC reasons.

[DM SummerBreeze]

It seems some people seem to be a bit confused here so I will mention it again:

We are not talking about opening up the entire surface to the Underdark races. We are talking about allowing soubar/select areas around soubar, to be open to the underdark races as a non KoS/Neutral area for them to engage in RP with the other evil factions above them.

Drow will still be under KoS rules in all of the areas controlled by the towns that normally would never accept underdark races and the rules would be the same as current rules for those areas.

I truly doubt we would see any more drow PVP mongering or baiting than we already do ( Which is almost none.) . And as previously mentioned, the people who sit in low level areas ect to PVP bait tend to not last very long on the server.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

First drow on the PW, pitching in my support.

[Domovoi]

Here's my two cents;

I think lessening the restrictions would only make it worse. People who play drow usually play it for the Drow Experience. Don't change the surface to in some areas become their uneasy friend. Instead, don't give them trouble when they swing by on a surface raid. There was always need for them to have good reasons to dare sneak out of the Underdark and so forth and it ended up being more trouble than it was worth. Just give them free reign on coming up and do drow things. I for one would love to have some tension in the world, and drow raiders would certainly do it. But Keep it "Kill on Sight"! They're still drow here to raid. They should feel that any moment could be their last and we should feel like approaching them could spell death at any point.

If we remove that tension, they're just tanned elves vacationing on the surface...

[Hoital]

I truly doubt we would see any more drow PVP mongering or baiting than we already do ( Which is almost none.) . And as previously mentioned, the people who sit in low level areas ect to PVP bait tend to not last very long on the server.

tbh, the people who are willing to do things like this are going to do things like this regardless of rules or restrictions. This isn't about those people, this is about opening things up for people who are genuinely here to RP and make and play a character that they enjoy, I would think. And Soubar and places northward were already kinda... Doing this, this is just moreso making it official if anything.

I don't see the problem here. It allows people to play together. Sure you can still have IC issues/conflict regarding someone hanging around a drow or whatever, but... Yeah, this is already going on, I don't mind it, I think it's great to encourage people trying to rp to interact.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

1. if no one is playing drow/UD because there is no RP, then why not make it into NPC/DM and make it the big bad? imo, if we (the players) despite being level 30 are treated in story line as level 15s, that's the big bad those level ranges usually head down into.

This statement allows me to infer that you're not comprehensively aware of the UD. The environment there is in a state of presence on the server that was for a time active with staff involvement both from a perspective of development in area design, CR zone creation, items, as well as DM interaction, and in some cases inclusion in the overarching plot of the PW. The rest of the PW continued to advance into additional territories and features while the UD presence stagnated and eventually backburner on priority until it was summarily put on life support. There is much more variety to be explored with the UD populace than the way that BGTSCC currently is configured for and the proverbial grass is greener on the other side came to pass. There is RP to be had but enabling it requires work staff side just as much as it does for the surface.

2. if you need to come to a place that you are KoS to get your RP fix, and you are starved for RP, then why not make a surface character to RP as?

Not all stories must meet the same template as an alt does on the surface. The KoS looming on a character adds to the threats that UD characters already experience and can add to the general RP experienced, modifying too the interactions heavily toward intrigue plot and similar. This argument could be easily made toward people who go outside of their character's normal day-to-day just to get RP as well. "If you need to come to a bar to get your RP fix and are starved for RP, why not make a drunkard?"

3. the general 'safe' area that has been abused to hell and back again by UD is the shrine of Eldath in the Reaching Woods, where veiled threats, taunts, etc are made because its a shrine to peace and therefor no blood should be shed there, so people use it to troll and try to force a reaction from other people. Making more 'safe' areas for UD people will likely only increase that. "I'm Evil, I'm a drow, I taunt you, but because you follow your silly surface laws, you can't do anything about it Blows Razzberries" isn't exactly compelling RP, and I fear that is what the 'safe' areas will turn into, "I am going to be mean and insulting as an evil character, and you can't touch me, because I will just teleport out after saying all these horrible things and spreading horrible lies about people and just slip away out of your reach." Just gets annoying rather then compelling.

Surfacers do this already inside public Guild Hall spaces but when one or two Drow do it in a remote place it's a problem?

Plus if you are evil and want to make deals with other evil factions, taking away the clandestine meetings in deep caves, just to be able to show up to the bar in sobar and talk about such plots openly is sort of 'meh' as well.

By comparison I wonder the frequency the BGEF and FAI campfires have been succumbed to; I imagine you'd be surprised this isn't a UD specific problem.

4. How is adding a safe place on the surface for UD people going to help UD players sense you have to get through epic areas as it is to even cross the barrier to the surface? as it was pointed out, you already have to be epic levels to get up to the surface, which means weeks of grinding as a new UDer just to even reach these new 'Safe' places.

This is a valid concern. It is a band-aid to buy time while the Underdark can be revised to enable the UD play styles more often as well as test the waters for lore supported interactions between surface and the underdark further.

5. If you are choosing a Monster Race to play, and you are by basically playing any UD character that goes to the surface, don't be surprised at your lack of RP. The same should be said of Surfacer's going to the UD for RP, you are the monster down there, they are the residents.

A pool volume is larger when a segregated sauna can come to join it. It is not an opt-out experience, it's opt-in. No one is forcing you to goto Soubar or the surrounding environs.

I will say when I first joined the server 4 years ago, I was told that if you liked PvP you went to the UD because that's what went down there. You made characters for conflict. You fought each other for power until you made it to the surface and then you raided the surface because it was a common enemy, but the general theme was PvP with an RP basis.

This cements my first sentence. While conflict is saturated in Drow culture it is by no means the primary and only feature. The general experiences of RP in the Underdark is considerably rich when it's available but it requires the PW to enable it more than a fleeting support line left in time in 2009.

[Tekill]

Yes.
But this tiny change is only scratching the surface (pun!), of the issue with the UD. I do not think the UD can truly function on a PG13 server. We can act sinister but we can not actually be wicked. I think that's the real reason the UD is dead IMO.
So, I do not think it will change much.
Also, the Sword Coast does not see a lot of UD races very often. It's kind of the lore. So the UD players are cut off from the surface for lore reasons. The other reason its dead. It's Baldurs Gate the Sword Coast Chronicles, not Sshamath the Underdark Chronicles.
But what are we talking about?- A meeting place where UD'ers can mingle with surfacers a bit?
It not like the East Gate Campfire will become filthy with Drizzt's. If kept in a few isolated spots, it wont be immersion breaking.
UD characters will now have the option to go to the surface and hang out. The hope being that there might be cooperation between surface and UD in the formation of factions and hopefully clever schemes.
A small change to breath a bit of life into the UD player base.
Another breath could be to maybe open up Sshamath to magic users and sketchy surfacers as well?
It is a merchant city - they may be racist down there but they love paying customers.

[DaloLorn]

I voted "yes" by default, but when I got a closer look at the actual proposal, I noticed some... oddities.

1) I do not believe that Boareskyr needs to become an equivalent to the East Farmlands. I would much sooner prefer an expansion of the Soubar exterior, if it were felt that such a zone was necessary, as Soubar would be more closely analogous to the Farmlands. (Both areas are regulated by their respective authorities, to an extent.) Turning Boareskyr into a hangout zone does strike me as a problem, for many of the reasons discussed.

2) No KoS, but otherwise no change. While it's certainly a welcome improvement, let's not kid ourselves: Anyone a drow player would hope to meet on the surface would already RP before attacking them. If the neutral zone is to be defined solely by the absence of KoS, then by the same maxim, the Upperdark should no longer be a valid kill/loot zone for surfacers. (And I say that as someone whose most active character right now can only loot the Upperdark.) If we're expanding the neutral zone out of the Upperdark, we should do so in such a way that the expansion is consistent with the rules of the original neutral zone. Your proposal does not do that.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

Just a hard yes from me, yes! I've been dreaming of the day this change is actually seriously discussed for years, thank you SB <3

I guess I'll add some points too. As was mentioned before, this change is about expanding the neutral zone, not opening the surface for the drow. Currently, the neutral zone consists only of the Upperdark (Kro's, Gauth grottoes, Titanfist, Ogre Cave, Rockrun etc), the places where all races follow standard pvp rules and can loot and get xp. The change would expand the list to the surface North, including areas such as Forest of Wyrms, Reaching Woods, High Moors, Winding Waters, Troll Claws, Northern Tradeway, Graypeak Mountains and so on, which is only fair for the UD'ers, because they have much less content available.

Indeed, currently UD'ers can travel to the surface and those who want it do it and always did, but they can't party up with their team evil pals, properly adventure and they're a subject for KoS rules (I started separate threads on why KoS is anti-RP and why it shouldn't exist). The change would be in line with what the UD characters already do and want to do, with what the players wanted for years. With KoS lifted, hostile RP will remain and, I suspect, there will be even more of it, but you'll have to follow normal PvP rules for both sides (which most roleplayers do anyway, from my observation).

About RP implications of drow adventuring on the surface, it's simple. Just imagine human adventurers. For drow, getting into the unknown surface is as dangerous as for humans to descend into the deep dark caves, but human adventurers still do it.

About the fear of mass PvP mongering like 10 years ago, I tell and keep telling that times have changed. The community has changed, the culture has changed, and mass carnage / campering of the 2010 sample is simply impossible today, unless there will be months and months of evolution towards a more hostile environment, and the current community won't allow it because people generally want more chill and less stress. Some cases, of course, will happen, but:
1) The current ruleset doesn't restrict PvP'ers either way, it restricts UD adventurers / travelers.
2) It would be separate cases rather than cultural norm.

I also don't think this change is a panacea from the Underdark in particular and team evil as a whole issues, but it's a great change that would make the server environment a bit healthier and certainly set it on the right path.

[Steve]

https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/r ... row1.shtml

The Ethics of Drow Killing
Adventurers who want to maintain their good alignments must always think before they smite. Just because the vast majority of orcs or bugbears, for example, tend to be evil, does not guarantee that any particular orc or bugbear deserves to be mercilessly cut down in the name of truth and virtue.

With drow, such qualms do not apply. Virtually any individual in a drow community has already proven him- or herself a murderer - even small children.

Be warned, though: By the same token, almost all drow, including very young ones, are experienced killers and might boast shockingly high levels as warriors, rogues. or sorcerers. More than one adventurer has died an ignominious death after relaxing his guard with a drow child,

Drow wanderers might, in exceedingly rare circumstances, claim the mantle of goodness. Some individuals exile themselves from their murderous communities in search of a peaceful life out of Lolth's reach. In most cases, they'll be consumed with shame and self-loathing, unable to fully shake the savagery of their formative years. A supposedly good drow might not gut you in the night as you sleep. but he'll still constantly wrestle with powerful impulses toward dishonesty, selfishness, and treachery. The fact that surface-dwellers shun them at all costs makes life even more difficult for the infinitesimally tiny fraction of drow who sincerely seek redemption.

Instead of the OPs proposal, please expand the Upperdark, and use it for what it was originally instituted: a realm were Underdark/Surface “relations” could be more Canon supported.

Expand the UpD, make it fun for the Players on both sides, throw some Events there, even add a few PrCs for making it feel “new.”

When one starts to chip away at Canon Forgotten Realms, imho, it weakens the context in which many come to BGTSCC in the first place. Greenwood, Boyd, and many many others created a rich World for us to “play” in, and I for one enjoy the challenges and rewards to uphold that world vision. Cheers.

[EasternCheesE]

Honestly, it's so easy to say "expand X, make more areas of Y". But, just look back. How many new areas we got through past 2 years (and i don't speak old areas that were returned with the split), brand new areas? I know of just few and all of them except Mist lake rework, are surface. With such a speed, it will just never happen, especially since builders see UD is empty, so why bothering to build for it?

[yyj]

Would be nice to increase cooperative roleplay between UD and surface but seeing drow on the surface daily, running around looting, etc. would suck, at least for me.

[Hoihe]

Currently Boareskyr Bridge contains the entrance to En Dharasha Everae.

An alternate approach at the moment is to - again - cross Boareskyr, High Moors, Misty Forest and finally transition thru the hidden waypoint.

Getting to EDE is already troublesome due to vicinity of Soubar. Encouraging drow to hang out in that area - right outside the guild town of a chaotic good race that hate drow....

is not a good idea, even if you need a key to use the stone circle.

[Ravial]

Drow cringe ;P

Voted no, not because I detest Drow or whatever. I, simply, think that the proposed idea isn't a good one. Allowing them to dwell within Soubar gives Soubar even fewer reasons to exist and not be smote into oblivion by the likes of Elturel. In essence, that would be handwaving a major threat that is a den of all kinds of monsters.

Imo, a good middle ground would be removing KoS as a whole and enforcing the current UD-Surface rules; travel is possible for good reasons only and no grinding. We're supposed to be a roleplay server. Grinding on surface/underdark shouldn't come as an important aspect.