My shifter videos

[DaloLorn]

What matelener did with EW and EDM and what you propose to do with CON is that he recognized that there is a problem but instead of solving the problem at its core, he tried some "patches". Such patches always come to bite you in the (hiney) and add to the complexity of doing future changes . I dont know what your definition of OP is, but if a 20level PRC with minimal equipment enables a player to easily solo all PvE content WITHOUT any UMD, then that is the definition of OP. The huge regen in combination of DR adn speed movement increase is what breaks it. I guess in your world it is common for melee builds to have 10DR, 10regen, 30% speed increase and multiattack. Just because you made your build in way that doesnt synergize with the shifters' power doesnt change this.

No, it isn't common for melee builds in my world to have 10 DR, 10 regen, 30% speed, and multiattack. On that point, we are in agreement: It needs to go away.

Here's the thing, though: Having all of that simultaneously is only possible with the epic CON feats. The base class may be - may be - OP, but its synergy with the CON feats is what really takes the cake. I don't have enough information to know how it performs without that synergy, because to my knowledge, nobody plays a 20-level Shifter without it. (Those that do are either choosing not to comment on this discussion, or are like me and don't have enough Shifter levels to reach a decision yet.)

Finally I do not care if you or anyone else nerf specifically my builds, even though i would bet that 90% of the shifters are now CON based. Especially if that results in a PRC closer to the power level of the other PRCs - i guess that is the big difference between you and me.

This paragraph is clearly a response to the first paragraph of my post. A paragraph which was a whimsical response to what I hope was a whimsical remark on Steve's part.

Let me be clear: If I find that the base PRC is noticeably superior to the alternatives, I will call for it to be nerfed across the board, the same as you. But until I have enough data to make that assessment, my preferred strategy is to target the obvious outliers, especially when this also results in a positive effect outside the scope of the PRC. (Which, to my understanding, will happen if the effects of the CON feats are reduced under all polymorph effects.)

EDIT: BTW the reason that you do not have to powerbuild with the shifter PRC, is because the PRC does all the power building for you. Uncanny dodge AND Blindfight AND tumble AND 3regen AND unlimited shifting on top of the forms' abilities ... KEKW Powerbuilders do crazy class splits and try to get every possible feat and do not come close to all the things the Shifter can get. No, by playing this PRC you are a powerbuilder

Mmm, Rinn may possibly be one of the more powerful characters on my roster. That much is true. Though I think you mistake "didn't powerbuild because it wasn't needed" with "didn't powerbuild because I didn't want to." By and large, my builds tend to pick a concept, tick all the checkboxes that fit that concept (Rinn's fiendish heritage, for instance), and then optimize from there. This results in characters which are competent, but highly unlikely to solo epic dungeons, because the cost of making the build fit my concept is too great:

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• Shali: Versatile dragon knight. Needs autostilling, needs martial and armor proficiencies, needs Arcane Scholar and Brass Dragon Disciple. Because I toyed with the idea of having her Gandalf it with her staff and sword, she also needs Monkey Grip. Also picked up Northlander Hewing, CE, Heavy Shield Specialization (I screwed up my fighter progression, not realizing I wouldn't have 13 INT until I was halfway into epics... so I had two fighter feats I didn't know what to do with), and two reserve feats.
• Ollandor: Scholar of everything. Ideally, I'd take Mystic Theurge and, I dunno, Harper Priest and Arcane Scholar? I dunno, his current build is an abomination so inept that even I won't play it for anything except RP.
• Siril: Elven knight, I guess. If I ever pull him out of mothballs, I'm liable to make him something like an MaA/CoC; right now it's MaA/Bodyguard.
• Silia: Drow matron. Sneaky, with tons of divine magic. Also worships Kiaransalee. Since I created her, she's ended up being something of a frontline commander for her undead armies, so instead of my original Cleric/Blackguard/Darkfire Disciple build, I've gone with Cleric/Bodyguard/Darkfire/Hierophant for better caster progression and a more useful method of obtaining Sneak Attack.
• Kana: Wannabe paladin farmgirl, Chaotic Good with the Combat Focus feats. Started off as Fighter/Bodyguard/Dragonslayer, now a Fighter/Anointed Knight. Has more feats than I can count, and she's pretty decent now, but she's still extremely vulnerable to magic and ranged attacks.
• Mainda: Con artist or something? I don't even know anymore. Bard/Dissonant Chord/Guild Thief. I think she misses out on Song of Requiem and all the other epic bard feats, but she should be passable.
• Hugishnak: Barbarian10/shaman20, a boisterous good half-orc always spoiling for a fight in Uthgar's name. I think he was sort-of okay last time I played him, but do you honestly believe he'd be much good in epics?
• Mard: DEX feylock? CHA feylock? I can't remember, but he's okay at it. Might be fun to make him a Feytouched Daggerspell, but I don't think I can really mess him up too much.
• Ilhara: Sorcerous Daggerspell Trickster. She's fragile compared to Shali, and not great at disengaging from a fight, but she's a solid 1v1 blaster. Except blasters are some of the weakest damage dealers on the server, only salvageable by the AoE spells she stinks at.
• Fon: I think maybe I was going for a Sorc/Frostmage/Trickster/Assassin, but I'm not sure that was actually feasible before the Extra Skill: Hide/MS feats were added. Probably pretty bad at everything except sneak freezing targets.
• Cald: I dunno, something something half-elven ranger. Probably gets Arcane Archer, but it's been so long that I can't remember what the plan was. (I can, however, remember him being bland and utterly devoid of character, so he didn't level up much despite a pretty decent build.)
• Amaetha: Druid/monk, with Mystra's Spell Stash and Faith Healing. She can probably buff up to a respectable amount of AC, but with an 11/6 split on her base classes? Her wildshape AC stinks, and she doesn't do much damage in natural form (or pre-epic wildshapes).
• Vichan: Something with researching everything related to life and death. Ended up with Palemaster/Bloodmage/Master Alchemist, which is probably passable, but hardly amazing.
• Vilmar: Basic half-elven transmuter. 10/10/10 Wizard/Scholar/Archmage with forbidden necromancy, performing far worse than I'd expect no matter what he does.
• Caili: Wizard/rogue. Takes Arcane Trickster, and a Shadowdancer dip because she can. She's okay as long as she can successfully HiPS away from overwhelming odds, but otherwise she performs noticeably worse than Ilhara on all fronts due to low INT, no TWF, and fewer sneak dice than her drow counterpart.
• Pixanie: Cheerful, indestructible alien avatar of accidental mayhem. Not unsurprisingly, she gets to be a feytouched CONlock with all the heritage feats. She also gets 5 levels of Shadowdancer, because that still lands her at CL30 and it further bolsters her survivability. Again, being a warlock, there's not a lot of ways she can go wrong... but with a final CON score of only 18, her epic feats are a mundane "Eldritch Master and 4 blast dice".
• Jando: Swashbuckling possibly-ex-pirate. Originally thought I'd have SW20/Duelist 10 with maxed Parry, but Parry's too broken to be a viable defense, so I went with SW12/F12/TA3/R3. Probably going to be on par with Kana by the end of it, but with a different way of getting there... and not as tanky.
• Berred: Another take at a dragon knight. This one needs Epic Evocation for reigniting, but also autostills and has decent BAB. He gets Paladin for CHA to saves, because what the hell. Probably still weaker than Cald, Silia, or my warlocks.
• Saman: Chad's build, an arcane warrior thief. Probably one of the most effective builds I've got, since I imagine Chad tries to optimize a fair bit.
• Lamir: Ki monk, takes as many ki feats as possible. Probably one of the worse ways you can build a monk 30, but he's probably passable with enough wards or gear.
• Red/Dae/<SPOILER>: My first full rogue! (... Close enough.) An acrobatic thief whose build is based on a character I made elsewhere. Has to take TA, has to take a ton of rogue levels, and has a feat schedule mostly mirroring the original build with a few refinements. Not bad, but probably not great, since she doesn't have TWF, and her survivability depends mostly on Springboard or Hide in the Shadows.
• Nelee: Silverstar having fun with moonblades and epic reignition! Silia's probably better, except against Shifters.
• Rinn: Succubus-blooded sorceress. Shifter is a logical fit, and she's quite probably going to be one of my best performers... but far weaker than many PCs I've seen or heard of, still.