What Drow Thread(s) Taught Me

[Almarea90]

There are many interesting points and I personally think level cap 20 and application for certain concepts is a good compromise (I would have been happy to apply for tiefling race when I rolled Edelgarde), as long as there is no cap on the number of applications that can be accepted on the server. I would not be a fan of a system that would refuse an application no matter how good it is just because the cap has been reached.

I will not pronounce myself on builds, mechanics and balancing issues as my understanding on the topic is extremely limited.

[yyj]

I learned that:

1. DnD lore is subject to more revisionism than actual real world history.

2. Reading.

3. That drow and tiefling can be used in an interchangeable manner.

4. That no matter what's implemented on the server, someone will complain.

[YYA]

What do you guys think the answers are?

1. When should "drowmon" be used in IC prose?
A. We should never use "drowmon" in any situation, it is not real Drow speak

If someone wants to learn words of a made-believe-pretend language of their very own creation, they should not be surprised if people do not wish to interact with them. Drommon is more understandable with Surface-Drow interactions, not in Underdark itself.

2. How many times should the word "lithe" be used in an IC Drow character description?
A. 0

You have words like slender, supple, sylphlike, and graceful. You need not use a word that makes people think of diet liches.

3. What color should Drow eyes be?

E. Any colour is OK.

This server has S'shamath as its drow city, and thus it needs not be bound by cultural traditions of Menzoberranzan where any deviation from local 'racial' norms is seen as a sign of weakness, and where any offending newborn would be slain right after its birth. Wizards favour intelligence ability modifier, not the colour of eyes or skin. And speaking of drow skin colour, if you look at covers of those Drizzt Books, Menzoberranzan drow are actually kind of purplish in their skin hue. Not ash-grey or something. And considering how different elf clans fled into Underdark, it is not that farfetched to suggest that a different racial variations would have risen to dominance somewhere else, even if they shared the very same Menzoberranzan culture.

4. What alignment should drow be?
B. Any alignment is fine

It is your character, just remember to role-play your alignment.

[YYA]

- When it comes to making less lore common builds, ask people write a small application to the DM team and as DM team be lenient.

And who exactly decides what is a less lore common build? Because let us imagine that I dislike you, that my forum username is some shade of blue, and that you have made e a human fighter with some combination of PRCs -- what prevents me from just deciding that your character is 'less lore common' and done without an application?

- The server is tuned towards power building and gathering loot thus people will pick races that benefit these builds.
With the 3/20 rule and limited amount of classes to pick as a big chunk are race/deity bound thus most people end up with cookie cutter builds.

You literally get experience on this server by sitting around a campfire and occasionally typing something. There are literal quests that can be done at level one if you purchase a handful of invisibility potions. There is an in game consignment store where you can find +3 equipment, and sometimes better, at a mere fraction of the price it would be sold by the NPCs.

And yes, this server can also be played as if it were a video game.

A: What I would suggest is installing Kaedrins pack , by injecting a larger variety of choice you present players to roll characters to distinguish themselves from others and be special by just playing that class.

Kaedrin would not want that.

B: Remove the 3/20 rule, it's a OOC mechanic that pigeon holes people into cookie cutter builds and encourages picking specific races

Oh, I could make a Favored Soul 26/Cleric 1/Rogue 1/Fighter 2. You cannot escape cookie cutter builds, with or without the rule. The rule is fine as it is.

C: Allow sub types with stat benefits for all races/sub races so there is a bigger choice.

So, like what, Sun Elf with Half-Orc ability score adjustments? Nah, that is not D&D, that is just generic MMO stuff.

D: Remove 19 dex requirement from SD, and make HIPS work like the rogue hide in shadow.

Or how about you just stick with Rogue levels? You no longer have to take three levels of Shadowdancer.

-Remove all epic levels and stick to level 20 and make content/DM events based on that.

Or, simply double the lore based NPC levels and abilities. Duke Eltan is a level 40 Fighter. Elminster is a level 60 something Wizard. Drizzt would be level 40 something as well. Which the server has actually already done in a sense... The Frost Giant King has those silly 50+ fortitude saves simply because he once had the stats of a 30-50 CR NPC mob. He was also much more difficult to kill.

You know, it is possible to create NPC bosses that no one can kill alone, or even in a party, but players tend to get to rather upset at such challenges... So the high end bosses have already been nerfed down a lot from what they once were.

[Ghost]

- When it comes to making less lore common builds, ask people write a small application to the DM team and as DM team be lenient.

And who exactly decides what is a less lore common build? Because let us imagine that I dislike you, that my forum username is some shade of blue, and that you have made e a human fighter with some combination of PRCs -- what prevents me from just deciding that your character is 'less lore common' and done without an application?

Since you're not very subtly hinting at DM corruption in such processes: When we used to have applications, there were no single DM making decisions to approve or disapprove on their own.

If you on the other hand imagine that everyone with a "forum username in some shade of blue" dislike you, I submit that perhaps it is unhealthy to stick around whether this perception of dislike is factual or not - and if it is, whether it is justified or not. Doesn't even have to be this server, or any nwn2 server. Any place where the decision makers in a community for some reason have decided they don't like you and thus will treat you unfairly, may not be the healthiest or most productive place to spend one's time.

[YYA]

Since you're not very subtly hinting at DM corruption in such processes: When we used to have applications, there were no single DM making decisions to approve or disapprove on their own.

Dungeon Masters are people too, and people are imperfect. Thus the number of Dungeon Masters responsible for a decision does not really change the situation at hand, because Dungeon Masters do not exist in some nebulous void devoid of all interpersonal relationships: in other words, do they really want to argue with a friend on principle alone -- something that in all dye practice appears to be frowned upon on this forum community -- or would they rather wish to maintain a more amicable work place environment? You also have to remember that BGTSCC is not the first of its kind to manifest itself on this green Earth, and therefore, there will always be people who will not even consider sending any class or PRCs application simply because of past events on some other server. I do remember when the Red Wizard was an application class, and people were often asking about alternative builds they could use simply because they did not want to send any application, or were far too uncertain of the nebulous server specific 'requirements.'

Corruption is always a possibility, but there are bureaucratic processes that are more susceptible to it than some others. And if we are honest, if there are no application only classes or races, there can be no application related corruption.

[DaloLorn]

Having played on a server with applications as widespread as what Calen is suggesting:

No, thanks.

First off, there's only so much DM time to go around, and it's already not enough. That's why we no longer have applications for classes like Shadow Adept, and why writing a good bio no longer has an XP reward. It's also why we've recently witnessed the institution of a rate limit on DM requests. They have too much on their plate, and not enough time or manpower to deal with it. (It is tempting, I think, to reapply... but the DM client still gives me nightmares, and my chronic altoholism didn't go well with trying to carve out a chunk of playtime for DMing. )

Secondly, while Ghost raises a good argument for why corruption is less likely, it is still not entirely unbelievable that an application could be shot down by antagonistic DMs misinforming the rest of the team. For instance, of the DMs currently on the team, I believe Ghost is easily the one I've interacted with the most, whether as a DM or a player. If he were so inclined (which I doubt! ), it would probably not be too difficult for him to tell everyone how horribly irresponsible a player I am, with my rare encounters with the other DMs being sufficient only to generate token opposition to his claims.

Thirdly, applications are typically used to filter out possibilities. False positives can far too easily occur, unless your screening process is so lenient that it amounts to little more than writing down "okay, this guy wants to play XYZ" on a roster somewhere. Maybe there's a miscommunication between player and DM. Maybe the player is pushing things a little too close for the DMs' comfort, but would probably be fairly responsible about the matter. Maybe the player made an honest mistake early on, tried to course-correct when called out on it, but couldn't correct hard and fast enough without breaking internal consistency. Who knows? But using an application process as a substitute for actually enforcing the rules is bound to cause problems in more ways than one.

To make this a little less abstract, I'm going to take a dive down the history of the Menner family (spoilered for length):

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In Spring 2019, I wandered onto BG. After creating a dud character that has been lost to time (but not wiped from my fault ), I made what would become my first long-term character: Shali Menner, a young sorceress from the vicinity of Waterdeep who was only just beginning to discover her magical talents. Shali was friendly, driven by a desire to use her powers for good, and like myself, largely oblivious to the workings of the server.

During a player plot in which Shali enchanted her Staff of Magic Missile (... or rather, faked it by getting a second staff, and swapping between the two enchantments), then-ADM Loki tampered with the new enchantment by making the staff burst into flames. Predictably, Shali panicked, and the incident reinforced my tendency to have her spiral out of control, struggle to maintain a firm grip on her rapidly-growing powers. Less predictably, Loki started suggesting possible bloodlines for the girl, and we quickly settled on a brass dragon. Whatever plot Loki was trying to start, it didn't pan out... but the consequences of that initial encounter were nonetheless far-reaching, and went on to transform Shali's RP and identity in ways that can be felt to this day.

It could also be seen as a defining character moment for the server administration: Loki did not know if I could adequately RP a brass dragon disciple. I did some research, but I was by no means an expert on the lore. This did not stop him from offering guidance and advice regarding how I should deal with her transformation, nor did it stop anyone else from advising both the young dragonblood and her player. I don't play her a lot anymore, because neither she nor I have much idea what to do with her anymore, but it is not for lack of enjoyment, and she is still one of my favorite characters. (She'd better be! She's got more XP and gear than most of the others! )

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A little under two years later, in Winter 2020/2021, and after a couple of months of playing on Ravenloft, I decided to try going back to my roots with another half-brass. Since Ravenloft's take on dragon disciples is closer to the SRD, I decided a 10/10 bard/BDD split would probably be more fun to play than a 10/10 sorc/BDD... and unlike most people, I didn't like the idea of only taking an arcane dip and going fighter/DD with my remaining levels. So I made a wannabe brass bard, who knew a thing or two about brass dragons, and wanted to be more like her draconic progenitors. Her name, Thraxia Liryk, was a combination of a draconic theme ("Thraxia" sounds sort of draconic) and a musical pun, and probably an alias rather than her real name. (Sometime during her first week, I realized that I could tie her to Shali and more actively benefit from my experiences playing a DD here. As a result, Shali's niece, Rala Menner, is due to be born sometime in the following decade. )

That did not go well.

On BG, I telegraphed Shali's transformation with minor, statistically insignificant changes in her final pre-DD levels. A few faint scales here, accidentally breathing a wisp of fire as a consequence of one of her recurring dragon dreams (and promptly needing to gulp down a bucketload of water each time! )... I continued that pattern as she leveled, with the aim of providing a smoother, more organic transformation than "I finally hit level X and it's changed me overnight". In order to do the same on Ravenloft, I first had to confirm that Rala would be taking DD levels... so I submitted an application in advance, allowing some padding for CC deliberation and Rala's level progression.

To say that they were unconvinced of my fitness to play the PRC would be an understatement. My logging habits were substandard, so they could only take me on my word that I had RPed towards acquiring the class. My first encounters with other DDs were with assorted chromatics, and the behavior of said chromatics made Rala overly questioning of the assertion that chromatic heritage was automatically evil. And to their mind, I was too new and too ignorant of DD behavior, and needed to keep at it.

So I did. Reluctantly, at first - I suspected I would exceed level 10 by the time I was allowed to apply again, but Rala's misery over her initial failure proved surprisingly useful in curtailing her level progression. I finally got into the habit of renaming my logfile every time I closed NWN, and I tried to pay attention to the red flags raised both in the CC's official response, and in unofficial interactions with individual CC members. Rala started hoarding art, she managed to rebuild her failing confidence to the point of pride, and she reluctantly broke all contact with her red-blooded adoptive aunt, the one dragonblood who truly seemed to care about her.

And when I compiled all that added RP into a multiple-page essay detailing the reasoning behind every DD-related decision she had made, and how her life up to that point was going to drive her future actions, backed by dozens of logfiles' worth of citations, I got shot down again. This time, it was a mixture of not bothering to read my application (let alone cross-reference the summarized backstory with my logs), and concerns about my handling of a PvP plot involving one of my other characters. Concerns which only got brought to my attention because I was applying for a PRC, as if the rules only matter then.

The best part? Actual dragon disciples, people who had gone through the application process and passed... blatantly ignore the things I was told about metallic-chromatic relations, and one of the key reasons Rala began to trust the chromatics was that one of her fellow metallics seemed to get along with them. Yet there's no talk of pulling the PRCs from them, despite their very public assertion that they will, in fact, do that if people are being irresponsible with their subraces/PRCs. Yet somehow, the CC judged that I was either unable or unwilling to maintain the very rigorous even the lax standards set by my peers.

Fun stuff. Looking back, I'm amazed it took me as long as it did to fully return to BG... and maintain that this retention was only accomplished because they mostly managed to make the gameplay more interesting in its own right, and because it was easier for my characters to either start or get involved in long-term plots without DM intervention. Not coincidentally, my most active characters since my return have been:

• Shali - returning to my roots, before getting involved in Shamble's plot, where her optimism was surgically removed and she ran back home rather than watch helplessly from the sidelines
• Red/Dae/<SPOILER> - a dangerous and exciting crossplay adventure, mixed in with amnesia and an unlikely friendship with someone more troubled than herself
• Rinn - perhaps my first villain that doesn't self-isolate, and hopefully also a fun departure from my usual gameplay
• Vilmar - looking for friends and familiars in all the wrong places, and being as bad at it as always

[Calen]

Giving feedback in the form of constructive criticism or suggestions is useful for a dev team ,regardless if it is achievable in its current form.
The idea behind feedback is progress ,improvement but most of all clarity, it doesn't necessarily mean the suggestions should be implanted.
Raising a concern or simply showing that a part of the community shares certain views can spark productive discussions.
Different point of views can lead to new ideas, as long as there is a mutual understanding that there is merit to be found in hearing both sides.
Reacting negative and/or angry towards different opinions is however counterproductive and will eventually lead to a toxic community.

[YYA]

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The best part? Actual dragon disciples, people who had gone through the application process and passed... blatantly ignore the things I was told about metallic-chromatic relations, and one of the key reasons Rala began to trust the chromatics was that one of her fellow metallics seemed to get along with them. Yet there's no talk of pulling the PRCs from them, despite their very public assertion that they will, in fact, do that if people are being irresponsible with their subraces/PRCs. Yet somehow, the CC judged that I was either unable or unwilling to maintain the very rigorous even the lax standards set by my peers.

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I will take your word for it, and if someone from that other server is terribly offended by it, well, feel free to share your side of things.

Whenever it comes to the application only nonsense on persistent worlds, and it really is just nonsense, the only thing it ever seems to objectively achieve is that a certain clique of people has access to certain classes or races -- while others simply do not. Which means that the whole application process is usually just an empty facade, and what matters far more are the interpersonal relationships with whoever gets to make those decisions. A request from a 'friend' is a known quantity, where as a request from someone you have barely interacted with often is not. Thus a decision gets made in favour of a friend, and against if you are not. Thus on those application only servers, you have to become a sycyphant -- an empty 'yes man' -- to whoever makes those decisions, otherwise you are just not going to be in the right clique to recieve the special priviledges. It only costs your own dignity, so the question is, how much do you really want to play a certain class or race? But even if you decide to throw all semblance of dignity into the wind, it still doesn't mean that your timezones align, and thus the attempts to 'buddy up' can fail even by the most charismatic and likable of individuals. And finally, the longer a server runs, the more likely it is that it is no longer the same group of people making those decisions. Thus a one time member of a clique might find oneself outside of the clique of the new powers that be. The current state of the server is not going to stay the same forever, and even if there are no problems of favoritism in the beginning, there always will be down the line. It is inevitable.

And then, I suppose, you also have to consider how some people have far greater need to save their own face than some others. Thus if someone has championed a rejection of an application, regardless of the reason, out of pride and ego alone that person might refuse to even reconsider when presented with a new application that should pass with flying colours. And unfortunately; if a new player is given a go with restricted class or race it always comes with the risk that this new player could make the old players look bad, or inferior, in comparison. Thus it is not just the old players of restricted classes and races that might lose their face, it is also whoever accepted their application in the first place. Not to mention how one good role-player could potentially raise the bar of expectations considerably higher than it was previously, which means that any new application has to meet even higher standards, which in time will simply manifest a schism within the server's player base, and for no other reason than players being able to see that the older players of restricted classes and races do not meet the new standards.

Thus all in all, restricted classes and races are often lauded as a way to ensure quality of role-play, immersion, etc -- while in reality these restrictions have never manifested anything beyond slowly degrading mediocrity.

[Tekill]

I learned, there is a strongly held belief that the drow are an overpowered monster race played by pvp mongering murder hobos. And that the UD is a unique world in itself, such a Dragonlance or Ravenloft. So, seeing a drow on the surface is like seeing a kender on Toril.

I learned that if drow and the UD are not made to be a vital part of a server then this belief will prevail at the expense of UD players.

[Ewe]

1. Fight Rudeness with Kindness.
2. Meet violence with swifter violence.
3. Help all Drow in distress.
4. There is a place for everyone in the great Light above, where the flowers and trees grow.
5. Learn to hunt and be self sufficient.
6. Strangers should be given food and shelter and warmth.
7. All feasts should be accompanied by song and merriment.

[DM SummerBreeze]

I like the notion of trying to treat each other better and having better communication, like in general and in life, not just in this game, that's what Drow taught me.

So the real treasure was the drow we met along the way?

But I only know one drow

[Tekill]

I like the notion of trying to treat each other better and having better communication, like in general and in life, not just in this game, that's what Drow taught me.

So the real treasure was the drow we met along the way?

But I only know one drow

Drizzt Do'Urden!

[JIŘÍ]

There is nothing wrong with PVP, as long as it comes out of role play.

Any PC just jumping onto another pc only because of name tag or race, is however bad.


Because on both sides are players who play for fun. Denying any interaction to the opposing player is bad. One linie of hateful proclamation before pvp is not an interaction.

There can be also very tense and hostile interaction with it not slipping into pvp in the end at all. It takes more effort and skill to get to that point and any claim of how it breaks someone's role play is just blatant attempt to cover for own laziness or simple not desiring to provide full blooded interaction to the opposition be it a drow, bandit, orc or anyone else.

Ignoring everything what happened just to push for kill over and over without allowing other side to influence and shift your character is also kind of cheap play. Why bother to interact if you intend to always go in your set up railroad (for example an elf repeatedly saved by an orc but still trying to kill that orc on every single encounter).