BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

[gedweyignasia]

The thing is, I don't go to dungeons for XP, or to see how many mobs I can pwn. And loot is just a bonus. I go to dungeons for the atmosphere, and to explore, and if...

Imagine a dungeon of aesthetic epicness...that has no mobs, and is just there for role-play, and perhaps...CvC conflict?!?

Now you make me want to do a third dungeon, and I'm not even done with my second...

[Snarfy]

The hope was that people would hang around and idly try the puzzles while they RP'd. Basically, campfire RP, but in a more flavorful environment. It's like magazines or the little twisted metal puzzles with shapes stuck together in a waiting room for your doctor or dentist. Didn't work out that way.

I'm not so sure, when I see groups in there, they are in there for a good long while(maybe the players who visit it might chime in?). I even spent a good hour or two inside before my old brain got stonewalled by that puzzle It's actually a great dungeon to explore, and probably one of the nicer ones to look at. If I had to speculate why it doesn't get more visitors, I would say it's because A. there isn't exactly a lot of party play occurring that doesn't involve powering through and killing/looting everything in sight, and B. some of those puzzles are damned hard, probably even for groups to figure out. I've never seen the end of the dungeon, or the boss(and that's totally ok), so I can't really comment on the difficulty.

As ever, this dungeon is designed to allow you to RP. If that means hiding in a locked room together and waiting for the monsters to go away, I want that to be a viable option. (It is; you'll see.) On the other hand, if it means charging head-first into insane numbers of difficult enemies to explore the area and learn what it's about, that's an option too. Or maybe you just want to sneak about and learn the layout; you won't accomplish much that way, but you'll have done some valuable scouting in case you decide to come back as a group. Naturally, it'll have a very annoying mechanism that discourages players from ever visiting, but makes for a different experience in case anyone is interested.

All of this sounds great! ... except for whatever this "mechanism" might be, heh *suspicious look at you*. I can only imagine how difficult and time consuming it is to make a dungeon, or any content for that matter, but I think it's important to be mindful of the "re-playability" aspect. Speaking purely as a player, I want to have a reason to visit dungeons/areas repeatedly(that aren't loot/XP related), or that get more challenging the further in I go(which most dungeons do). Durlags tower is about the most perfect dungeon the server has in this regard. I genuinely don't need to finish a dungeon to feel some sense of accomplishment, and, to this day, I've never fully explored the lowest levels of Durlags, but I thoroughly enjoy going back there. Troll claws old mines and south moors stalker cave are on the other end of this spectrum(for me), because, whether it's my cleric/SF(visited once) getting swarmed by uber DR critters, or my rogue(also visited once) getting spotted immediately after I set foot inside, nothing makes me switch off more than not being able to explore an area at all(while solo).

Anyways, this is just my perspective, but hopefully it helps a little.

Imagine a dungeon of aesthetic epicness...that has no mobs, and is just there for role-play, and perhaps...CvC conflict?!?

[Steve]

If you compare solo grinding to group adventuring the payout is favorable for group adventuring. Now if you compare group adventuring (as in taking your time exploring, RPing) and group grinding then yes the payout of group grinding will be superior in terms of loot and exp.

What to do there, setting a combat exp cap per reset perhaps ?

How about trying to make using Skills, and not just melee benefiting Skills, give some XP?

Like for example, imagine that if you have the Spot Skill, and you select a mob at a distance, and Roll a Check against it, the engine calculates a DC based on distance and land coverage, and if you Succeed, you get the same XP as you would for an RP Chat tick of your PC's Level?

Or, like I posted earlier, the RP Chat ticker gives an exponentially higher output depending on how many PCs are in your Group—as in legally grouped up—with also calculating actual IG Distance from each other (so that one can't just sit at Map corners and RP Chat to the air—you'd need to be within 5-10 feet PLUS actually Grouped to that other PC(s), for the XP exponential potential! Something like this would make taking a slow walk through a dungeon equally progressive in Gains as would a circle jerk grind session.

Or, one could setup diminishing returns on combat XP over time per reset, while RP Chat xp sees increasing returns over time grouped together between toons multiplied by a small denominator depending on the size of the Group.

One great way "taking your time" has been employed to benefit the player, the PC AND the Group are the Lore Nodes, that give an XP tick. So what about adding XP gain whenever something or anything in the Dungeon is Rolled against using X Lore Skill? How about when you Right Click a Netherese Door, if you have Lore: History or Lore: Arcane, you gain a XP tick like opening a Chest?

Or how about if one Right-Clicks any mob or NPC, and there is a Lore DC check, with a Success giving out 100 xp?

Look, I read back the above and I understand it probably involves a ton of work. I'm sorry. But if you incentivize the little things, and incentivize investing in non-battle mechanics via satisfying gain of XP, or Gold, or Loot, Players will invest in THAT part of the Character Sheet, and invest in THAT type of Role-play, that being one that involves taking time, being curious, investigating, commenting, sharing.

But yeah...maybe a combat XP cap is just easier!

[Steve]

Now you make me want to do a third dungeon, and I'm not even done with my second...

YOU CAN DO IT!!!!!

[gedweyignasia]

Now you make me want to do a third dungeon, and I'm not even done with my second...

YOU CAN DO IT!!!!!

I really can't. I ran out of creative ideas 2/3 of the way through this one, and I'm waiting for some of our other devs to feed me ideas so I can finish it. It'll be a while.

It's actually a great dungeon to explore, and probably one of the nicer ones to look at.

That's all tfunke and 404ninja! I did most of the puzzles (and came crying to Endelyon for ideas on one or two that she borrowed from other RPGs), but the aesthetic is mostly tfunke, with a little help in the storm puzzle from 404ninja. I'm really sad that they're not making content anymore, because those two and LISA have made almost all of our prettiest areas so far.

[VDub]

The thing is, I don't go to dungeons for XP, or to see how many mobs I can pwn. And loot is just a bonus. I go to dungeons for the atmosphere, and to explore, and if...

Imagine a dungeon of aesthetic epicness...that has no mobs, and is just there for role-play, and perhaps...CvC conflict?!?

Ulcasters Ruins?

[Steve]

The thing is, I don't go to dungeons for XP, or to see how many mobs I can pwn. And loot is just a bonus. I go to dungeons for the atmosphere, and to explore, and if...

Imagine a dungeon of aesthetic epicness...that has no mobs, and is just there for role-play, and perhaps...CvC conflict?!?

Ulcasters Ruins?

I adore that Area. I think some parts do have mobs though. Unfortunately, it has such a high Search DC just to enter it, that I’m sure many players have gone there…but never really got to go IN there!

[DaloLorn]

If you compare solo grinding to group adventuring the payout is favorable for group adventuring. Now if you compare group adventuring (as in taking your time exploring, RPing) and group grinding then yes the payout of group grinding will be superior in terms of loot and exp.

What to do there, setting a combat exp cap per reset perhaps ?

How about trying to make using Skills, and not just melee benefiting Skills, give some XP?

Like for example, imagine that if you have the Spot Skill, and you select a mob at a distance, and Roll a Check against it, the engine calculates a DC based on distance and land coverage, and if you Succeed, you get the same XP as you would for an RP Chat tick of your PC's Level?

Or, like I posted earlier, the RP Chat ticker gives an exponentially higher output depending on how many PCs are in your Group—as in legally grouped up—with also calculating actual IG Distance from each other (so that one can't just sit at Map corners and RP Chat to the air—you'd need to be within 5-10 feet PLUS actually Grouped to that other PC(s), for the XP exponential potential! Something like this would make taking a slow walk through a dungeon equally progressive in Gains as would a circle jerk grind session.

Or, one could setup diminishing returns on combat XP over time per reset, while RP Chat xp sees increasing returns over time grouped together between toons multiplied by a small denominator depending on the size of the Group.

One great way "taking your time" has been employed to benefit the player, the PC AND the Group are the Lore Nodes, that give an XP tick. So what about adding XP gain whenever something or anything in the Dungeon is Rolled against using X Lore Skill? How about when you Right Click a Netherese Door, if you have Lore: History or Lore: Arcane, you gain a XP tick like opening a Chest?

Or how about if one Right-Clicks any mob or NPC, and there is a Lore DC check, with a Success giving out 100 xp?

Look, I read back the above and I understand it probably involves a ton of work. I'm sorry. But if you incentivize the little things, and incentivize investing in non-battle mechanics via satisfying gain of XP, or Gold, or Loot, Players will invest in THAT part of the Character Sheet, and invest in THAT type of Role-play, that being one that involves taking time, being curious, investigating, commenting, sharing.

But yeah...maybe a combat XP cap is just easier!

Some of these are maybe going a little too far, but I like the general idea. I'd definitely also like to see a mechanical incentive to spread your skill points out, instead of tending to just max out a few core skills and call it a day.

As for a cap on combat XP... I would probably be more in favor of a soft cap than a hard cap, but yeah. I'm not sure how relevant it is to our situation, but Ravenloft actually has a softcapping system on all non-RP XP, where your non-RP XP gains are boosted (or more typically, penalized) based on how much XP (including RP XP) you have compared to an average PC of the same age. Combined with their slower overall progression, it helps maintain party cohesion between sessions, since the expected level of all the PCs in a party will progress at roughly the same pace. I liked that, it helped me keep up with those players who ran dungeons while I was asleep or otherwise unavailable.

[Hoihe]

If you compare solo grinding to group adventuring the payout is favorable for group adventuring. Now if you compare group adventuring (as in taking your time exploring, RPing) and group grinding then yes the payout of group grinding will be superior in terms of loot and exp.

What to do there, setting a combat exp cap per reset perhaps ?

How about trying to make using Skills, and not just melee benefiting Skills, give some XP?

Like for example, imagine that if you have the Spot Skill, and you select a mob at a distance, and Roll a Check against it, the engine calculates a DC based on distance and land coverage, and if you Succeed, you get the same XP as you would for an RP Chat tick of your PC's Level?

Or, like I posted earlier, the RP Chat ticker gives an exponentially higher output depending on how many PCs are in your Group—as in legally grouped up—with also calculating actual IG Distance from each other (so that one can't just sit at Map corners and RP Chat to the air—you'd need to be within 5-10 feet PLUS actually Grouped to that other PC(s), for the XP exponential potential! Something like this would make taking a slow walk through a dungeon equally progressive in Gains as would a circle jerk grind session.

Or, one could setup diminishing returns on combat XP over time per reset, while RP Chat xp sees increasing returns over time grouped together between toons multiplied by a small denominator depending on the size of the Group.

One great way "taking your time" has been employed to benefit the player, the PC AND the Group are the Lore Nodes, that give an XP tick. So what about adding XP gain whenever something or anything in the Dungeon is Rolled against using X Lore Skill? How about when you Right Click a Netherese Door, if you have Lore: History or Lore: Arcane, you gain a XP tick like opening a Chest?

Or how about if one Right-Clicks any mob or NPC, and there is a Lore DC check, with a Success giving out 100 xp?

Look, I read back the above and I understand it probably involves a ton of work. I'm sorry. But if you incentivize the little things, and incentivize investing in non-battle mechanics via satisfying gain of XP, or Gold, or Loot, Players will invest in THAT part of the Character Sheet, and invest in THAT type of Role-play, that being one that involves taking time, being curious, investigating, commenting, sharing.

But yeah...maybe a combat XP cap is just easier!

Some of these are maybe going a little too far, but I like the general idea. I'd definitely also like to see a mechanical incentive to spread your skill points out, instead of tending to just max out a few core skills and call it a day.

As for a cap on combat XP... I would probably be more in favor of a soft cap than a hard cap, but yeah. I'm not sure how relevant it is to our situation, but Ravenloft actually has a softcapping system on all non-RP XP, where your non-RP XP gains are boosted (or more typically, penalized) based on how much XP (including RP XP) you have compared to an average PC of the same age. Combined with their slower overall progression, it helps maintain party cohesion between sessions, since the expected level of all the PCs in a party will progress at roughly the same pace. I liked that, it helped me keep up with those players who ran dungeons while I was asleep or otherwise unavailable.

On spread vs cap, that needs a culture change and a ruling by the DMs.

It's frustrating when the same challenge, under the same conditions, can have vastly different DCs depending on whether the DM/dev demands 33 ranks at 30 or is using P&P sources.

We don't even need the P&P DCs, can modify them by N to be more suitable to the fact we're max level 30 rather than 20... But if we want to encourage a spread of skills, we need to make max investment no longer mandatory

[DaloLorn]

How about trying to make using Skills, and not just melee benefiting Skills, give some XP?

Like for example, imagine that if you have the Spot Skill, and you select a mob at a distance, and Roll a Check against it, the engine calculates a DC based on distance and land coverage, and if you Succeed, you get the same XP as you would for an RP Chat tick of your PC's Level?

Or, like I posted earlier, the RP Chat ticker gives an exponentially higher output depending on how many PCs are in your Group—as in legally grouped up—with also calculating actual IG Distance from each other (so that one can't just sit at Map corners and RP Chat to the air—you'd need to be within 5-10 feet PLUS actually Grouped to that other PC(s), for the XP exponential potential! Something like this would make taking a slow walk through a dungeon equally progressive in Gains as would a circle jerk grind session.

Or, one could setup diminishing returns on combat XP over time per reset, while RP Chat xp sees increasing returns over time grouped together between toons multiplied by a small denominator depending on the size of the Group.

One great way "taking your time" has been employed to benefit the player, the PC AND the Group are the Lore Nodes, that give an XP tick. So what about adding XP gain whenever something or anything in the Dungeon is Rolled against using X Lore Skill? How about when you Right Click a Netherese Door, if you have Lore: History or Lore: Arcane, you gain a XP tick like opening a Chest?

Or how about if one Right-Clicks any mob or NPC, and there is a Lore DC check, with a Success giving out 100 xp?

Look, I read back the above and I understand it probably involves a ton of work. I'm sorry. But if you incentivize the little things, and incentivize investing in non-battle mechanics via satisfying gain of XP, or Gold, or Loot, Players will invest in THAT part of the Character Sheet, and invest in THAT type of Role-play, that being one that involves taking time, being curious, investigating, commenting, sharing.

But yeah...maybe a combat XP cap is just easier!

Some of these are maybe going a little too far, but I like the general idea. I'd definitely also like to see a mechanical incentive to spread your skill points out, instead of tending to just max out a few core skills and call it a day.

As for a cap on combat XP... I would probably be more in favor of a soft cap than a hard cap, but yeah. I'm not sure how relevant it is to our situation, but Ravenloft actually has a softcapping system on all non-RP XP, where your non-RP XP gains are boosted (or more typically, penalized) based on how much XP (including RP XP) you have compared to an average PC of the same age. Combined with their slower overall progression, it helps maintain party cohesion between sessions, since the expected level of all the PCs in a party will progress at roughly the same pace. I liked that, it helped me keep up with those players who ran dungeons while I was asleep or otherwise unavailable.

On spread vs cap, that needs a culture change and a ruling by the DMs.

It's frustrating when the same challenge, under the same conditions, can have vastly different DCs depending on whether the DM/dev demands 33 ranks at 30 or is using P&P sources.

We don't even need the P&P DCs, can modify them by N to be more suitable to the fact we're max level 30 rather than 20... But if we want to encourage a spread of skills, we need to make max investment no longer mandatory

The problem is, there are some skills with clear and immediate utility outside DM events. Hide/MS, Spot/Listen, Tumble, Spellcraft, and UMD are the most obvious ones, though Appraise and Lore: Arcana also have some niche value. Disable/Set Trap, Open Lock, and Survival are also valuable skills to max out, though they're niche skills too. Everything else is optional, to be taken at the player's leisure, and to be used at a DM's whim (if at all).

[Tanlaus]

But group play already does give better rewards compared to solo play ... even just mechanical ones ... you kill things much faster, you get RP EXP, the carrots exist.

Yes…when you’re talking about grinding. Grinding simply pays out proportionally to group size.

So if grinding is what is supported on a RP server, then right now, we’re good. Lol.

Compare group/solo grinding carrots to group/solo social and/or RP carrots, in terms of payout.

If you compare solo grinding to group adventuring the payout is favorable for group adventuring. Now if you compare group adventuring (as in taking your time exploring, RPing) and group grinding then yes the payout of group grinding will be superior in terms of loot and exp. What to do there, setting a combat exp cap per reset perhaps ?

The problem with a combat XP cap is that it might punish players who can't log in as frequently. Like suppose you only log once a week but you have four or five hours to play. You might get a group and start adventuring but hit the XP cap half way through… then what?

Hang out at the campfire? Keep exploring but without XP?

I think a good portion of people would just log.

Setting combat xp cap per area might be better but it might also be horrible for non 30 epic players who don’t have many areas to get xp in.

[gedweyignasia]

Suppose you only log once a week but you have four or five hours to play. You might get a group and start adventuring but hit the XP cap half way through… then what?

If the grind is the only thing keeping players engaged with our content, then we've made it wrong.

[YYA]

*Claps hands together.* Easy mode areas.

[DaloLorn]

Yes…when you’re talking about grinding. Grinding simply pays out proportionally to group size.

So if grinding is what is supported on a RP server, then right now, we’re good. Lol.

Compare group/solo grinding carrots to group/solo social and/or RP carrots, in terms of payout.

If you compare solo grinding to group adventuring the payout is favorable for group adventuring. Now if you compare group adventuring (as in taking your time exploring, RPing) and group grinding then yes the payout of group grinding will be superior in terms of loot and exp. What to do there, setting a combat exp cap per reset perhaps ?

The problem with a combat XP cap is that it might punish players who can't log in as frequently. Like suppose you only log once a week but you have four or five hours to play. You might get a group and start adventuring but hit the XP cap half way through… then what?

Hang out at the campfire? Keep exploring but without XP?

I think a good portion of people would just log.

Setting combat xp cap per area might be better but it might also be horrible for non 30 epic players who don’t have many areas to get xp in.

The softcap I mentioned might be a good solution to the problem you mentioned.

[Tanlaus]

Suppose you only log once a week but you have four or five hours to play. You might get a group and start adventuring but hit the XP cap half way through… then what?

If the grind is the only thing keeping players engaged with our content, then we've made it wrong.

I agree but suppose you’re not grinding a single area but going through multiple areas? Might still hit the cap even if you’re not running circles in xvarts or Wyvrens.