Fun with Data

[Azroth]

As people spoke before here, the world is not alive. And I think what people try and compare some things in the past to that is using the word 'mmo' as a comparison. The typical MMO is a systematic grind that relies upon the system presented before you, lacking much impact 90% of the time with the world around you, like how WoW is. And people get really bored often after an expansion comes out, dip, then wait for the next.

If one was to focus less on a systematic stylized approach as that, it would help maintain some interests along the way. People like me go brain dead after doing circuit loops that work for us after an hour. It's not as engaging as some of the social aspects. So people doing some RP while the grind is not at all surprising, if they even find a party for it, in the first place.

[gedweyignasia]

I tried my best with Ulcaster, but it didn't land the way I expected. I have another dungeon I'd like to build if and when I ever have the time, but for now I think it's better to learn how the "system" that is our server works so I can learn what to do, instead of just trying to be creative.

[Steve]

You can design a game to be played by various types of players, but you can’t design a bunch of various players to play a game!

What I mean is that players have OOC agendas—or just ways of being—that a designer will never be able to counter for.

Particular to BGTSCC, the truth is that, for example, with 1 hour of game time, your best “pay out” or concrete reward in terms of progression, is a 1 hour of RL solo “adventure,” or grind/questing circle. You log in, and within 3 minutes you can be earning XP.

With 1 hour of RL time trying for party play, unless it was scheduled OOC beforehand, a player will spend 20-30 minutes arranging IC a group, and then spend 10 minutes IC leaving that group from the “adventure,” as that RL 1 hour is up. Even so, a party-based mob grind isn’t that….RPish….in the first place, as we’ve identified ad infinitum.

As I see it, the basic fundamental that needs “redesigning” in the BGTSCC version of the NWN2 game, is Progression….at least, away from Experience Points as the defining factor of progression. Without fundamentally changing this, it will always be the factor that players arrange their game style/tactics/experience towards.

But maybe everyone Loves XP progression, but, the issue then is it isn’t infinite for during the “life” of the PC (yet it SHOULD be!). So here is this other dilemma: race to the top, then what, in terms of “experiencing the design of the Server?”

Traditionally, once reaching “the Top,” the Progression Game turns into the Possession Game, as in, what is left is collecting the best, most tailored gear to your PC that is possible. Which likely most often accounts for the continual lootz grindz game that players with a 30 regularly pursue.

Personally, I enjoy the Progression Game, but absolutely despise the Possession Game! Lol. As a player with quite limited RL time, in order to feel some form of progression in my play, I need to solo quite a lot. For good and bad.

You might ask me: “but Steve, why not pursue role-play progression more, or just mainly?” I can easily answer by saying that “RP progression” is slow, and in my experience, especially with Campaigns, slow-to-non existent. And in terms of design, the Server is not a great host for the various modes/types of Characters that ARE RP’d here, which for me makes certain RP that I would like to invest in, prone to failure.

As a last note, and again, I see the Server as very much tailored to the XP Grind Game, whether solo or grouped, and so I adjust my own game to fit this mold, since it pays out the best, most direct and concrete reward for my RL time investment. Over time, and since the Server rarely changes, I’ve learned to be really, really good at maximizing my reward-for-time-spent. And I’m far from the most specialized in this!

If the Progression Game AND the Possession Game are to remain the dual-hearts of this Server, I think then that the more variety, the better. But just be honest that that is the main context of playing on BGTSCC. If one wants to turn BGTSCC more into a “high” Role-play Server, THAT will absolutely take a fundamental change.

I’m not even sure that would be possible with the NWN2 engine and structure! But it is worth giving it a try…right?!?

[DaloLorn]

To some extent, I feel that some of our progression issues could be mitigated by closing down some of the optimal paths, and possibly reevaluating whether previously-closed paths were optimal in their own right, or only given the appearance of optimality by synergistic effects.

For instance, the loot changes last year. Was the problem in that a player could get a decent income by running zones 20-30 levels beneath their PC? ... I mean, probably, to some extent. But did it need to be cracked down on as harshly as it was? Maybe not, taken at face value. It's one character, earning... let's be generous and say 15-25k per reset. High? Certainly. Too high? Maybe. Deserving of a reduction all the way to 1-2k for the same amount of time and effort? Probably not.

Except that's not what we see at the highest levels of the economy, do we? Even today, the richest players are generally not the ones who send their one PC on a systematic daily crawl through all the best looting spots on the server. (They are the second richest category, mind you. ) It's the ones that run the gauntlet with one PC... and another... and another... and another, until they get sick of it (if they ever do - I know I would) or run out of time to play. In an optimal scenario, a player like that would have so many high-level alts that they could effectively never run afoul of the loot cooldown.

[gedweyignasia]

With 1 hour of RL time trying for party play, unless it was scheduled OOC beforehand, a player will spend 20-30 minutes arranging IC a group, and then spend 10 minutes IC leaving that group from the “adventure,” as that RL 1 hour is up. Even so, a party-based mob grind isn’t that….RPish….in the first place, as we’ve identified ad infinitum.

It's the 20-30 minutes arranging an IC group that we might not need to take for granted. With further analysis, we might be able to identify some factors that make it easier or harder to form a group and rearrange our content to streamline that process.

[eternal night]

I think developing self sustained systems that open avenues for roleplay are the best.

Modular dungeons composed of rooms (Kinda like Ulcaster) bur different encounters instead of puzzles, maybe take a page off something already succesful like the Temple of Elemental Evil.

Maybe open up more professions and things to use skills ( craft armor, alchemy, etc.) Or other fun things to do with skills like using Survival to hunt animals.

[whatever123]

I tried my best with Ulcaster, but it didn't land the way I expected. I have another dungeon I'd like to build if and when I ever have the time, but for now I think it's better to learn how the "system" that is our server works so I can learn what to do, instead of just trying to be creative.

I explored Ulcaster the other day with someone. Was very fun and impressive!

[blazerules]

With 1 hour of RL time trying for party play, unless it was scheduled OOC beforehand, a player will spend 20-30 minutes arranging IC a group, and then spend 10 minutes IC leaving that group from the “adventure,” as that RL 1 hour is up. Even so, a party-based mob grind isn’t that….RPish….in the first place, as we’ve identified ad infinitum.

That depends.

This was years ago, but held true for when I made new characters but often times if its casual grinding or going through hilltop ruins it can be an easy "hey lets do it" and run through with some fun RP on the side.

Or if we are talking pure XP gain a mob of players snowballing into a total deathsquad was fairly common for xvart farming, and the same holds true for Wyverns. It's much more effective, and faster, to be in a group. Granted there is no RP and someone will eventually have their character not join the group because of puritan beliefs of their character.

Most of my friends that I made when I started playing BGTSCC came from these grinding groups and making it to 30. You are, inevitably, forced to interact with others because its more efficient to be together. Or simply because its less mindnumbing. Once you spend the 17th hour running in circles you have a bond in misery that is quite strong. I still speak to some people I did grinding with in 2017. So even OOC friendships can pop there. But I am unsure how this is for others this is just my own super limited experience.

I do find it easier to make friends ICly when doing party content than just... walking up to a person and talking. That's just about as awkward as walking up to a random person IRL and striking a conversation. Helps when you're both working towards the same goal.


In terms of making money though it really just comes down to the single fact of how much time are you willing to invest. If you have infinite time and patience you can do runs of every profitable area over and over and over again each reset. Maybe 3-4 times a day. This will pile on with time. Pay sanity, gain gp. Basically same thing as grinding XP except it has a limit per day. So a lot more bearable.