Open question to team evil/morally questionable

[Wolfshear]

Hi there!

It has been on my mind a bit of late so I thought I would pose this question to the ether, to maybe touch base with other questionably moral folk on the server.
For the sake of maybe having a bit of sounding board, how do you other fine folks feel about the server right now?

In the sense that I am curious about how others feel about their ability to run around and be naughty. Do you find the state of it fulfilling and enjoyable?
And of course what would you like to see improved specifically if you think it could use some?

Im really just wanting to gauge how everyone on this side of the fence feels about their ability to function and in what ways they would see it improved. Whats wrong with things, whats right with things etc etc.

And honestly if folk could have their ideal scenario, what would it be like?

Obviously this is directed at the naughtier folk but if the other side has comments feel free.

[eternal night]

The server always felt tailored for good aligned characters. When playing evil most people prefer to not do it openly as the odds are quite stacked against evil characters.

It'a especially bad because to keep a secret no player should know, otherwise it will be known by everyone eventually due to how small the playerbase is, failing to reflect how "big" the world actually is.

People who are just looking to pvp evil characters are the worst, powerbuilding bullies who don't care much about the roleplay as.long as they get to win, powergaming the roleplay with their ridiculous items or min maxed builds with 8 wisdom, int and charisma, not even asking one time OOC and expect everyone to just follow their lead.

I think also the server rules while they are very good, they arent as enforced as they should, maybe because we have DMs doing stories, playing judge jury and executioner, keeping up with player requests, and basically everything else.

Playing evil for me has been quite boring, it can be enjoyable but maybe playing with a group of like minded players.

[Rhifox]

I've said this before a few times on discord, but will repeat it here:

My biggest issue with evil RP right now is the lack of evil mains, and thus the lack of any kind of RP hubs of any sort. There was briefly one with the Blackrose bar, and I know Last Order wants to try and recreate something like that, but for right now at least there's pretty much no regular RP option for darker PCs. One of the biggest contributors to this issue, I find, is the tendency for people to roll evil characters for one of two reasons: PvP (often with very mustache twirly evil that more reasonable evil characters will not want to be associated with), or to be content for Good-aligned players to defeat. In either case, these characters are short-lived, rarely lasting more than a couple of months, since they were never designed to be a serious character. The evil mains that do exist, tend to be closet evil "infiltrators" who are functionally neutral/good-aligned in all but character sheet, meaning they RP almost entirely with good/neutral PCs and almost never with evil PCs. They might do a secret evil action here and there, but functionally might as well be good/neutral mains.

I think the same thing tends to occur in DM events (and is often expressed from DMs in conversation, too): That evil NPCs and arcs are meant to be defeated by good players. Which might be fine, except that very rarely do evil PCs get the opportunity to fight and defeat good NPCs, so it can feel one-sided (especially when the evil NPCs were put into play by evil PCs). More often, evil PCs have to be very careful about never directly challenging good factions because the consequences for doing so is much harsher than the consequences for good players opposing evil factions. Team Evil is basically stuck on a perennial defensive footing in most plots—we have to constantly defend our stuff, but if we attack back, we draw attention and are more likely to lose more than we gain.

Fundamentally, I guess the issue is this pervasive idea that evil play means "getting defeated," being content, or feeding the other side, rather than existing on its own merit. These mindsets do not support a thriving evil playerbase.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

I find some of the best roleplayers among certain evil groups, to be honest, and I love to run things for them. For example, Rain and her guild had a fantastic series of events where they went big. They didn't win, but I respect the hell out of them for trying what they tried.

[Steve]

Good post, and very worthwhile to ask.

...other questionably moral folk on the server..how do you other fine folks feel about the server right now?

I'm not questionably moral...I'm Chaotic Good!! lol. But I get what you mean. The Server is very much like it has been for years, for the evil-minded toon playing player: not fun. Rhifox touches on the why of it. But add to that near-zero support from the NPCs (read: DMs) has been a traditional thorn in the side of evil RP. And add some more to how many times evil PCs just ruin it for other evil PCs, because it becomes a "whose cock is bigger" interaction, i.e., general lack of cooperation between players of evil-minded PCs.

In the sense that I am curious about how others feel about their ability to run around and be naughty. Do you find the state of it fulfilling and enjoyable? And of course what would you like to see improved specifically if you think it could use some?

How can an evil PC actually manipulate any other PC? Skills don't matter, any Player can take an RP out at any time—it IS a good thing in most cases, so...—and literally there is meaning of Fear in our Characters because they have no lives to lose. Yet, without PC Death as a "real" thing, most evil vs good RP is very much He-Man vs. Skeletor cartoons.

Im really just wanting to gauge how everyone on this side of the fence feels about their ability to function and in what ways they would see it improved. Whats wrong with things, whats right with things etc etc.

And honestly if folk could have their ideal scenario, what would it be like?

I don't know how many people know how many evil-minded PCs I've played over the years as my mains—many times I used alt Accounts so that I could have some independence. But it has been about...4? I honestly cannot say that ANY of these 1-2 year investments in a Character amounted to anything, except frustration. You can try your hardest to be the "evil source" in Good vs Evil RP, but so often the other half just isn't interested. You just get ignored, both IC and OOC. Of course, everyone has the right to "play" with whom they wish. And often I can't blame a Player for not wanting to get involved with Evil-minded role-play, because it could get...naughty.

So, I can return ask a question to you, Wolfshear: what do you think IS the purpose of playing an Evil-minded PC yourself, on BGTSCC? What do you think you'll actually...manifest, in such Role-play? I mean, Paladin characters kill just as many conscious thinking "beings" in this game, on this Server, so...what Evil deed is "worth it" in order to play Evil?

To everyone, it would be really interesting to read what you personal goals are in playing Evil, and what "reward" you find from doing it, or you are looking to find.

Myself, I have always played an Evil-minded Character with the idea that I could RP towards direct change in the content of the Server. For example, having an Area become more unholy, or, just expanding a Canon Lore faction to have more influence in the IG region (custom or canon history building). I've never succeeded in making any lasting change, playing Evil. But I also have always felt that the Power that Be really just don't want to "give up" anything to Evil PCs, in terms of rights or changes to the actual environment. And because of this, I've seen more than my fair share of Evil-minded Characters totally switch Alignment, to Neutral and even Good, just so the Player could start "being a part" of the bigger show (Campaigns and Events).

As I final note, I posted this many year ago, for what it is worth:

Thoughts and Tips on Playing Evil and Organizing Evil RP

[Rain]

To start off I wanted to thank you taking the time for starting this thread and hope I can add some constructive criticism to the topic at hand. Do note: My evil on the server is largely a rare / exotic version of team evil that is largely at this point considered a "supervillian" plays-style and the prospective of that role. So I wanted to just give a heads up here before I get into the subject that my thoughts and opinions will likely not not be something that encompasses the larger majority of evil players and characters on the server.

So where to start... Well first off I suppose I can answer your initial question on how I feel about the server right now. The server as of late I will be honest is quite stale and boring most of the time. The main reason for this is in my opinion due to a couple factors. 1) The lack of player RP that is freely available to evil players. This is something that is sadly reality of the role itself... evil scheme against other evil as well as good, so in that regard there is less open dialog that is naturally RP'd out on mellow times of the server when nothing is going on. 2) A lack of lawful safe-areas for evil to Rp in. Realistically sure some could argue that team evil has Soubar and to some extent Nashkel for hang-out spots to RP in. In my eyes though there is currently no purely evil safe-haven for purely evil PC's to RP in. Soubar still has rules against evil summons in some regards and Nashkel is out of the questions if your openly playing an evil-minded character. The only place I could think of that would be anywhere close to what i'm thinking would be Darkhold. However Darkhold is a very particular area that is designated for a very tiny fraction of player characters on the evil-spectrum. 3) A general lack of enjoyment due to a low probability to impact the server. This is a big one... At the end of the day when you decide to play the antagonist to any story, the best antagonist are ones that impact the area or the lives of the protagonist that fight against them. Without any real substance or general threat you are suppose to showcase as an antagonist you are left feeling as if the bar for getting to that point in the server is to high or you are forced to join someone else who already is at the height of impacting the server in some meaningful way and joining them to feel as though you were a part of something meaningful for the role you want to play. I can speak from experience on this subject that from the words of the DM Team themselves (atleast in the past) it is usually always up to the DM's to play the "server-impacting forces" and for evil players to play supporting characters. Evil RP is gated at a certain point and unless backed by a majority of the server by getting everyone on board with what your trying to do you will likely find yourself -> RPing by yourself <- to try and "pretend" like your progressing your story-arc you want to progress.

To answer your second question... Running around and being naughty? I'll answer this quickly by simply saying... If you don't like getting your ass kicked then openly being naughty is not for you. And this is something that plagued the larger populace of evil that makes playing "secretive" evil more compelling to the larger populace to not have to worry about PVP or have 80% of their RP taken away because a large majority of it comes from the other side.

Lastly some ways I can see things being improved is going to take a real "emotional reset" between the DM team and Team Evil. I will brutely honest the past DM team has screwed and neglected Team Evil in so many ways. There is still alot of inner distrust that is scarred in alot of evil players even still to this day and it is something that makes it so that it takes alot of persuading from team evil guild leaders to even get people on board to want to interact with the DM Team in events. I have to give my guild-mates a huge thank you for being so supportive with attending my events. Without them I wouldn't be where I am today and they are a rare case when it comes to how much they want me to succeed as a player and a person.

[mastajabba]

I think the main issue that I found when playing evil PC’s is that there is not a clear path for characters to go from lvl 1-20’s in the “bad guy controlled areas” it’s either low lvl stuff or insane CR.

There is a lack of “HUB” as being mentioned. Also I agree that the problems is that with such a small player base if you are evil and are not Zenth then your even further ostracized. Hard to find a player here that doesn't have a character in any of the factions of the server.

Evil RP needs options to flourish

[DM Dreamer]

I'm hugely in agreement with Rhifox. I do have to add that as a player, I felt that ever since my wizard proclaimed himself a necromancer and joined House Blackrose, he was heavily limited. I felt that he was largely perceived as a one-dimensional evil PC. Of course, he was summoning undead left and right and didn't hide his affiliations with the Underdark. I imagine there was plenty reason to see him as evil, I loved that. What I didn't enjoy was being ignored and left out. I don't mean to attack anyone and I don't blame those who made effort to keep my PC out of the loop of information flow (made so much sense IC!), but it felt like once Locke started being openly evil, his interactions were limited to tavern RP in Blackrose HQ and scheming that would never get me anywhere. There simply was no need for an interaction. No stakes. No drama. I felt as though I was unable to challenge the system or have a way to meaningfully impact the world and status quo. After 6 months, I gave up. Only recently bringing this PC back to play as my belief in DM team was renewed. I still largely play the second fiddle as PC, I try to focus more on DMing, where I strive to encourage Team Evil to interact with DM Team and involve evil PCs in my events, often trying to promote morally grey areas as I believe pure good and pure evil rarely tells an interesting story. Just like in real world, we are flawed beings and so should be our PCs, if we want them to feel real and three dimensional. Anyway, that's my take on it. Glad we're talking about it, keep it up.

[Alexander Holgart]

I'll repeat what I explained in other platforms as well.

Let the evil players be the plot.

I love what DM GD and Batibat are doing, despite the fact that I didn't have the chance to interact with those events.

Evil players will seek to stir the pot, let them stir it and let them win when their ideas and moves lead to winning.

This means that the server needs to be ready to accept changes that will differ much from the official FR timeline as well.

Let the players be the centre, change the world based on their interactions with it, and let their choices change them back.

Is it easy? No.

Could it create drama? Absolutely.

But can we take a direction that would make everyone happy? I don't think so.

[Anrilor]

For the sake of maybe having a bit of sounding board, how do you other fine folks feel about the server right now?

In the sense that I am curious about how others feel about their ability to run around and be naughty. Do you find the state of it fulfilling and enjoyable?
And of course what would you like to see improved specifically if you think it could use some?

I’m really just wanting to gauge how everyone on this side of the fence feels about their ability to function and in what ways they would see it improved. Whats wrong with things, whats right with things etc etc.

And honestly if folk could have their ideal scenario, what would it be like?

Obviously this is directed at the naughtier folk but if the other side has comments feel free.

I have read the various responses, and as someone that plays for the other side, I do have some critiques. I know I have been lambasted for this in the past, but I will try again to explain our side of things.

The server always felt tailored for good aligned characters. When playing evil most people prefer to not do it openly as the odds are quite stacked against evil characters.

I don’t believe the server is set up for Good to win, Good maintains the status quo, Evil by some design is there to corrupt, and move against good forces, and grow their own power for themselves. Good exists to stop those plots, and maintain the status Quo. Our ‘wins’ give us NPC influence, and the ability to say in RP “I helped stop plot X.” But what plots have good had a lasting impact on the server outside of maintaining the status quo? I have been a player for several years now, and I do not know of any. If I am wrong, by all means, post the links and make your arguments. I myself can point to two places where evil has made an impact, one of which allows a murderer to sit in the Ducal High Court.

The Zhentarim Gate Trade treaty: viewtopic.php?p=708685#p708685

The Red Wizard-Gate Treaty: https://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?p=890278#p890278

For Good:

Beregost being free from Amn: https://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?p=890278#p890278

Kraak Helzak Defensive Pact with the Gate: viewtopic.php?p=901952#p901952

In regard to the Batibat plot in the Undercity. It wasn’t until a security council meeting was held, that Eltan (DM) gave order that it was a situation that was needed to be taken care of by both the Security council and a large fist patrol. Then times were arranged that the combined and unified forces of Bati’s group were to be held up against the ‘team good’ (and just getting through the dungeon before we got out front of the temple was hell, and we had to rest, which allowed evil to progress their side of things. By no means was it easy to stop the plot.) During the ‘boss’ fight prior to entering the temple where PvP took place, three people fell, it was requested that those three remained out of the pvp fight to come, which they obliged. As far as I could tell (and I am by no means a pvp expert) it was a close fight until one side started to gain the upper hand. Even then, at the end of the event, an aspect of an evil god appeared and whisked away ‘team evil’ to continue their plots down the road. That is not a win, that is not influencing the server towards good, or even a meaningful impact, all that did was maintain the status quo.

Now I trust at this point, you are probably tired of seeing the word ‘status quo’ but I hope you get the idea. If you see good winning, or defeating your plots, its so that the status quo is being upheld. We do not, as far as I can tell, get to influence and destroy evil once and for all, and give no place for Evil to hide. As far as ‘hubs’ go, there is no real place for Good to meet and do good things, and discuss and plot good plans. We have to retreat to our guild halls, so that evil doesn’t hear and aim to interfere becoming our antagonist. It has been pointed out in various conversations, that Baulder’s Gate is Neutral, not good or evil. While many good factions have residence in the Gate and belongs to the Lord’s Alliance. It is not inherently a good or evil city. However, Good is constantly in a fight for the ‘Heart of the City.’ Meaning they are constantly trying to persuade and plot to move the city to a more moral standing. However, we have not been able to achieve such in my opinion, some crisis, or conflict emerges that distracts, or proves otherwise at the good we are trying to move towards. Take the Fist conflict with the Druids, over half the Security Council did not want to sell the wood and give it back to the Druids and attempt to appease the Oakfather to not let this conflict happen, however, Eltan (DM) made it clear it was past the point of no return, and that the conflict would continue. We as ‘team good’ did not get to stop this plot from the political side of things. So we have to make another approach to stop or end this conflict in another way. While this conflict continues, it makes the Fist look oppressive, corrupt, and evil, backing down from promises made, and any on the Security Council look like a target that is agreeing with it.

Now to answer the question, that seemingly everyone has missed.

honestly if folk could have their ideal scenario, what would it be like?

The ideal evil sencario, would look like this, from the Zhentarim side if I had a character in charge.

Secure ‘Bridgefort’ and impose fines and fees from any merchant caravan using the Boarskyr bridge. Declare it as a ‘safety’ fee for keeping that part of the trade road free and clear of any threats for x amount of miles. Charge a bit more then the fees and tariffs that are imposed by the Gate for trade with them, to make that gold back, and perhaps a bit more.

When the docks clear of ice in the spring, get with the pirates at Roaringshore to go after the shipping lane up and down the coast, having them target waterdavian and neverwinter trade vessels and hold them for ransom or fees, and they are allowed to keep 75%. As most merchants will look towards moving trade to water rather then paying the bridge fee.

With the Lords Alliance effectively cut in half north and south, using the money made from trade with the Gate, and the Fees, end the war with Cormyr one way or the other. Then turn towards the smaller villages and towns of the western heartlands, first focusing on the neutral towns.

Make an agreement with the Shadow Thieves of Amn to try to press Amn to war again in the north, given all the troubles the Gate is having of late, and how they are looking inside to fix internal problems rather then to their allies.

Once Amn is ready to march again, begin to take Lords Alliance territory in the east, moving west, while Amn keeps the Gate busy, and then pincer them effectively winning the war in the south.

Now what is listed above, is exactly what Aly fears hearing that the Zhents have designs for Bridgefort, and is actively working against. She has her own designs on how to stop the Zhents from taking bridgefort, or making a new way around. These are how the good guys plots against the bad guys, they look to the future of how if team evil takes that inch, what is the next foot, the next yard, the next mile and what that will look like.

Now, I do feel the need to point out, that everyone so far that has responded to this thread did not answer Wolfshear’s final question. What if any plot, you could run, and it succeeded, what would it look like?

and then to that I will add, if you are allowed to impact the server in that way, is team good allowed to do the same, and/or reverse the changes you make?

If the answer is no, then I wonder what you feel the role of Team Good will be if you got all your dreams and desires realized on the server. Zhents concur the gate, undead reign in the sewers, Triadic temples, and the temples to the good gods ripped asunder, and there is no place for good to hide anywhere on the coast. As for the moment, I see team good is only allowed to be the instrument that keeps the status quo.

If the status quo is the issue, then that is something that needs to be made known to the DMs. Which I believe they are trying to answer, with the RP based guild expansion assets.

TL:DR

Team Good exists to maintain the status Quo, nearly every fantasy novel that exists, Evil poses a threat, Team good leaves to stop it, Evil is defeated, perhaps not eradicated, people celebrate, and then return to living their lives as they did before the threat, status quo maintained. Please to not hate team good for stopping evil plots, that is just the nature of the world we play in.

[Tekill]

TL:DR

Team Good exists to maintain the status Quo, nearly every fantasy novel that exists, Evil poses a threat, Team good leaves to stop it, Evil is defeated, perhaps not eradicated, people celebrate, and then return to living their lives as they did before the threat, status quo maintained. Please to not hate team good for stopping evil plots, that is just the nature of the world we play in.

'Hey everyone I don't play en evil character but here is a wall of text that justifies team good as the stars, and team evil, being mere props, of this pulp fantasy novel called BGTSCC.
tldr : Don't hate us, because we are beautiful!'

I have actually played a lot of evil players on the surface and the Underdark. And over the years I have complained a lot about the lack of support for the evil players, by other players and the DM's. It is my one big complaint about this game and this server.
I am not going barf up all my negative feelings over this subject because I have already made my points in past threads. But I will stress a couple points.

I will say that evil RP is very difficult on the surface. There is a definite bias against evil players from other players. There is sort of collective black list against evil characters. There is no gray area for interaction anymore- its all black and white (even amongst the neutral aligned players). The only concept being recognized here is Good vs Evil. Other concepts such as social class, politics, religion, law and chaos all seem to be thrown out the window. The status quo for RPing with a Red Wizard is to ignore him/her. Do not confront them, do not challenge them, ignore them, and they will vanish. I am generalizing a lot here, but in the end this is what it basically amounts to.

One direct example I can give was in regards to an 'in character' conversation my character overhead where this one player was 'eye rolling' over Rains character, causing trouble again and was killed for the umpteenth time. I guess the player in question wanted the necromancer to just stay defeated, and felt it was unrealistic that she keeps coming back to raise her kingdom of undead. The character new the Necromancer never stands a chance and so therefore is just an unrealistic annoyance.
Another example is one where I often witnessed a certain worshiper of Bane sit down at certain eat gate campfire. On numerous occasions there has been some goodly paladin of goodliness threatening to kill or arrest said Banite. It is so ironic that this servant of Tyranny is being oppressed by these other players. Usually when I observe the Banite arrive, most people gets up and leaves, continuing their collective black list, leaving the only engagement with this really cool character to be these lawful-stupid players uttering death threats simply because he chose a faith that they hate. And him just minding his own business sitting at a campfire doing no wrong.

This behavior is now pretty much the norm now.

I tried switching my evil RP from a pvp or CvC or conflict style of RP and tried creating factions of fellow evil players. Once there is a group of us, we plan events and RP among ourselves. But most evil players on the surface after experiencing some of the similar examples from what I listed above get sick and tired of trying and simply give up. The factions just keep imploding- not usually before the player makes one last rant before saying goodbye. I myself have now given up trying to RP an evil character on the surface....for the most part.

The level of RP I experience on the surface reminds me a lot of my days in high school. The surface has become more of a social server. A lot of the RP is based on players characters that are simply trying to RP 'the cool or popular kids'. They want to be the hero...so I can understand why, to a degree.
I think this situation has evolved to this mediocrity over time. The admin wanting a path of least resistance to avoid complaints have created the rules and rewarded certain RP styles over other styles, over time. Now here we are.

But the Underdark I would say is the only place I still have fun RPing an evil character. Even if there is just three of us down there. I feel I can really try and roleplay a personality that I am nothing like in real life. Which is kind of the point isnt it?!

[Rain]

I will say that evil RP is very difficult on the surface. There is a definite bias against evil players from other players. There is sort of collective black list against evil characters. There is no gray area for interaction anymore- its all black and white (even amongst the neutral aligned players). The only concept being recognized here is Good vs Evil. Other concepts such as social class, politics, religion, law and chaos all seem to be thrown out the window. The status quo for RPing with a Red Wizard is to ignore him/her. Do not confront them, do not challenge them, ignore them, and they will vanish. I am generalizing a lot here, but in the end this is what it basically amounts to.

One direct example I can give was in regards to an 'in character' conversation my character overhead where this one player was 'eye rolling' over Rains character, causing trouble again and was killed for the umpteenth time. I guess the player in question wanted the necromancer to just stay defeated, and felt it was unrealistic that she keeps coming back to raise her kingdom of undead. The character new the Necromancer never stands a chance and so therefore is just an unrealistic annoyance.

It's a usual thing that happeneds on this side of the creative spectrum for the server. Bati's been ignored plenty of times IC and OOC, even to the extent where iv'e had a player straight up ask OOC if I could just "Teleport away to save them the conflict because they had to go soon..." <- (I still hold this with me even though it happened months ago). It's something you need to get used to sadly and is a big reason alot of what I do now is just fourm RP because at the very least I can get some enjoyment and creative freedom from doing that. The server is a bit toxic as of right now that's for sure but I can't say if it's one sided. I personally have never turned down RP (because getting ANY rp is rare for me) but I know for sure the notion of ignoring the opposite alignment is something done to both sides. It just feels more harsh when an evil player does it because there is already a small list of PC's that will rp with you anyway and if your a "secret" evil well... all of your RP comes from the campfire... and thus the opposite alignment... and thus you need to pretend to be good... 24/7...

Edit: The DM Team has gotten alittle better as well. I give props to DM GrinningDeath and DM Dreamer for making things a bit more enjoyable by aiding evil with events and ideas. It is still far from anything perfect of what I WANT to see from the DM team but it's a start... A good start.

[Almarea90]

I was going to simply observe as I play a good aligned character and I can't really talk, however Tekill made a very valid point that I would like to address and expand.

I play a good aligned character, not a militant one but rather one focused on peace and redemption. This leads me to interact in a non hostile way with various questionable or right out evil characters.

It is true, as Tekill said, that very often such character are met with hostile RP or people rolling their eyes at them, but this is still in the spectrum of RP even though such interaction might be unpleasant for some. The problem arises when they are right our ignored, as he mentioned, as if they never existed.
I would like to further expand this point as there have been instances where the evil character is flatly ignored and the good or neutral character who interacted with them met with hostile RP for not acting hostile (in some cases not attacking) the evil aligned character, even though very often the tolerant character is not confrontational and would not escalate conflict. In other more unfortunate instances those who interact in a non hostile way with the evil toon are completely ignored themselves and excluded from the plots lest they leak a detail to team evil.
As an example, I myself was told while discussing a plot "but don't say this to X because I heard sometimes they speak with [evil faction name]".

While I understand that some characters might be more paranoid and distrustful than others, I believe this attitude discourages people who intend to play a more tolerant character and encourages them to join the ghosting trend because they fear being excluded from plots and in some cases RP itself while at the same time avoiding any hostile confrontation by ignoring the evil toon completely.

Now everyone is entitled to play what they feel comfortable with and I am not saying that those who play more paranoid character should be prevented from doing so. I also believe that this is caused by many factors (for example plots with world ending threats where if one screws up the coast is wiped out completely). I also believe that it is useful to understand which consequences this might have on evil RP and ultimately find some kind of compromise.

[DaloLorn]

I think the main issue that I found when playing evil PC’s is that there is not a clear path for characters to go from lvl 1-20’s in the “bad guy controlled areas” it’s either low lvl stuff or insane CR.

There is a lack of “HUB” as being mentioned. Also I agree that the problems is that with such a small player base if you are evil and are not Zenth then your even further ostracized. Hard to find a player here that doesn't have a character in any of the factions of the server.

Evil RP needs options to flourish

I'd pick out a few bits from other posts, but this one's actually pretty spot-on all by itself. Secret evils are the only ones that will reach level 20 (unless you're RCRing, or have the mental fortitude and the powerbuild needed to grind it up yourself), never mind level 30.

Similarly, once you become an overt evil, you're definitely not going to have a place to call home anywhere on BG South (unless you do the secretly-overt thing I tried to pull off with Rinn/Boollan, but Rinn still got IDed and killed before she was 15), and depending on your particular brand of villainy, you might not be welcome in any of the Northern surface hubs, either. (Nor will you be able to flee to Sshamath, on account of crossplay restrictions.)

Now, for my part, I'll admit there's some truth to Rhifox's post, and I see too much of my own attitude in Anrilor's post. While I had some notion of what each of my villains wanted to accomplish, I never really expected them to succeed at it. (Well, Vichan, maybe... but definitely not Fon. As for Rinn, even she's not sure what she wants anymore, which is a large contributor to the way she's mellowed out lately.) I made a villain, I intended to get to a certain point... and I fully expected to be smacked down sometime after that point. The problem was, as a non-DM with very limited access to actual DMs, I typically had no way of reaching that point, so I abandoned it. Rinn was a stunning exception, owing much of her success to Spidertomb, Alcreed, Nastya, Izsu and Valiant-Spirit... but she still got exposed/killed way ahead of schedule, in a manner more akin to "we just swatted down another evil, but we know she'll be back because nobody stays dead" than "hooray, we've finally defeated this monster!" (... To be fair, she did come back, but had no viable plan anymore except to start playing nice. And now everyone she has any interest in is gone, and I dunno what else to do.)

That being said, unlike Anrilor, I don't believe my villains must be defeated. I see it as an inevitability, and I don't mind that it is... but that good is allowed to win, or even that it often does win, should not mean that good will always win. (Conversely, if evil wins, that doesn't mean that victory should be irreversible, or that good should never win again.)

[Tsidkenu]

I played mostly good characters and for a long while was unfairly unsupportive of evil schemes - a particular attempt at Sharran infiltration being a case in point for my Mystran priestess character.

My first evil toon was a haphazard drow bardess. While I had an amazing RP experience with the UD folks, playing in the UD means minimal contact with surface races. For this reason it is both isolating and rewarding. Isolating due to the small UD numbers; rewarding because evil RP really does flourish in its own way in the UD.

After I retired Aeili I wanted to try a full time evil toon. Since I had been so harsh on the Sharrans previously, that was my instictive port of call. I knew that secret evil is the easiest way forward, so I crafted a deceitful disguiser who had no qualms stealing other's identities and using them to her advantage. This ultimately resulted in the deaths of no less than 3 good PCs over the many months I spent plotting and scheming.

The time came to be 'outed' and this was when RP took a dive. Once players know your PC is evil, it doesnt matter what your bluff or disguise skills are any more. Obviously I'm generalising; some players are far more accommodating. But what else can we expect when we lead them down a false road and they fall for it? Players and characters both go on the defensive, and this often shows in RP.

At this point I started to try collaborating with other surface evil but met with a whole lot of unbridled and uncooperative ego. Exasperated, I tried to collab for my characters permadeath with some of the clever good toons but Araphella ended up escaping in the end, still at large.

I never had issues levelling, partying or RPing until 'outed'. I did levels 20-30 solo in the upperdark. But levels 20-30 were the loneliest RP time due primarily to lack of collaboration. Good often become too suspicious of your username even if ICly one is an expert disguiser; evil can just be too selfish to work together, IC or OOC, for some goal.

If I were to play evil again, I would definitely consider the secret route with a much later reveal, if possible. And this includes OOCly.