Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2022)

[EasternCheesE]

Hello there. Ir is definitely fixed years ago and working correct providing full CL in terms of penetrating SR. On low levels, things may feel rough as some creatures may have about 20 SR so you end up having about 50% or less chance to affect them. Especially in Underdark.

[Steve]

*bump to see if reconsidering is still possible or a closed case*

[Steve]

In the Time of Troubles patch, a comprehensive rework of melee combat will be released. This rework grants various combat maneuvers to all characters, as well as a new combat GUI attached to the mode bar which will allow for easy use of these features.

These changes are massive!

Overall, a really interesting take on “common” abilities (here Feats) that every Class has or should have access to. I’m very curious to how well it will work out.

But how much of these changes get to 3.5e mechanics, or go beyond it?

And are some choices really necessary, like:
“ Tumble no longer gives +1 passive AC for every 10 ranks. Its bonuses are applied to the fighting defensively mode instead, as noted in the Fighting Defensively section.”

I mean you’re not actually totally following the 3.5e bonus here for Tumble ranks plus Fighting Defensively.

Special
If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2 dodge bonus to AC.

If you have 25 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +6 dodge bonus to AC when executing the total defense standard action instead of the usual +4 dodge bonus to AC.

And, like I said in Discord a few times, these changes make having Uncanny Dodge about the most important Feat out there.

[Rhifox]

But how much of these changes get to 3.5e mechanics, or go beyond it?

These follow 3.5e mechanics as much as possible. The main area of difference is in a couple of grappling stuff, and the merging of Total Defense with Parry (as there was no way of creating a non-parry "stops all auto-attacking" ability).

I mean you’re not actually totally following the 3.5e bonus here for Tumble ranks plus Fighting Defensively.

Uh, yes it is? +1 to FD with 5 ranks, +3 to FD with 25 ranks.

Unless you mean Tumble not applying to Total Defense, and that's because we have Parry doing it instead due to having to tie Total Defense to Parry.

[Steve]

Unless you mean Tumble not applying to Total Defense, and that's because we have Parry doing it instead due to having to tie Total Defense to Parry.

Exactly. One now has to invest in the Build of Skill: Total Defense + Tumble and Toggle TD, over just toggling Fighting Defensively and getting +6 Dodge AC at -4 AB.

[Steve]

Also, in regard to Feint:

Regardless of whether their DEX bonus is removed, you only get a single attack that round (but Haste does stack with it)

As it is now, a build sacrifices 1 attack, not the full round of attacks. Wiki:

Contrary to the feat description, you do not lose any attacks using this ability other than the attack you sacrifice to make the feint attempt. Any of your allies attacking the feinted target will also benefit from the reduced AC and sneak attack susceptibility. You cannot feint with a ranged weapon.

So, is it staying how it REALLY is, or has Feint been reduces to the sacrifice a full round? Which would mean that a Player absolutely had to use Feint on their last attack in the round, since Feint only lasts 1 round—without proper clicking protocol, you'd literally waste the Feint ability! lol. So, yeah, just checking on this wording. Cheers.

[Rhifox]

Also, in regard to Feint:

Regardless of whether their DEX bonus is removed, you only get a single attack that round (but Haste does stack with it)

As it is now, a build sacrifices 1 attack, not the full round of attacks. Wiki:

Contrary to the feat description, you do not lose any attacks using this ability other than the attack you sacrifice to make the feint attempt. Any of your allies attacking the feinted target will also benefit from the reduced AC and sneak attack susceptibility. You cannot feint with a ranged weapon.

So, is it staying how it REALLY is, or has Feint been reduces to the sacrifice a full round? Which would mean that a Player absolutely had to use Feint on their last attack in the round, since Feint only lasts 1 round—without proper clicking protocol, you'd literally waste the Feint ability! lol. So, yeah, just checking on this wording. Cheers.

Feint is blackboxed. The script basically gives a worse free version that takes longer, whereas Improved Feint is the version players can already take right now.

Unless you mean Tumble not applying to Total Defense, and that's because we have Parry doing it instead due to having to tie Total Defense to Parry.

Exactly. One now has to invest in the Build of Skill: Total Defense + Tumble and Toggle TD, over just toggling Fighting Defensively and getting +6 Dodge AC at -4 AB.

Only if you want to get the maximum of both Fighting Defensively and Total Defense.

Fighting Defensively: -4 +2
Fighting Defensively with Tumble 5: -4 +3
Fighting Defensively with Tumble 25: -4 +5

Total Defense: +4 (no attacks, spells, or items)
Total Defense with Parry 5: +6 (no attacks, spells, or items)
Total Defense with Parry 25: +10 (no attacks, spells, or items)


The two cannot be used together.

[Steve]

Only if you want to get the maximum of both Fighting Defensively and Total Defense.

Fighting Defensively: -4 +2
Fighting Defensively with Tumble 5: -4 +3
Fighting Defensively with Tumble 25: -4 +5

Total Defense: +4 (no attacks, spells, or items)
Total Defense with Parry 5: +6 (no attacks, spells, or items)
Total Defense with Parry 25: +10 (no attacks, spells, or items)


The two cannot be used together.

Right. Cleared that up. Thanks.

Just to be clearer though...the changes mean a nerf to AC via Tumble unless taking a -4 on AB (which is a yuuuge change to medium AB builds, imho). From my armchair, it seems to me that builds should drop Tumble and just take CE up to the +5/-5. But yeah, all depends on how it "plays out" through the game content, CR 1 to 30+. Cheers.

[EasternCheesE]

Just a small addendum:
Feint lasts for 6 seconds, not 1 round. Sadly, that's how obsidian coded it. So, once you used it and target failed check, they are considered flat footed for next 6 seconds.
So, if you use it on first attack in your round, it will last until first attack of next round (including it).
As we can't toggle creature flat-footed by scripting, we cannot control or emulate feinted status for creatures, so we have to play with cards we have.

[Rhifox]

From my armchair, it seems to me that builds should drop Tumble and just take CE up to the +5/-5.

If you have Tumble as a class skill, FD is superior to CE. But if you're a high BAB class, you often have more feat slots but fewer skill points, so that makes CE more attractive.

[zhazz]

Will Deadly Defense (+1d4 damage) function together with the Fighting Defensively mode?

Will it also work with Total Defense (renamed Parry)?

Currently it works with both Combat Expertise, and Parry.

[Steve]

I also want to say that having Disarm work this new way is awesome sauce. And having a +4 with Imp. Feint for dedicated Feinters is a nice little bit of love.

[Rhifox]

Will Deadly Defense (+1d4 damage) function together with the Fighting Defensively mode?

Will it also work with Total Defense (renamed Parry)?

Currently it works with both Combat Expertise, and Parry.

Yes. It also activates automatically now, and fixed to work with unarmed strike.

[Terankar]

So all builds that have taken tumble for the mechanic of AC, can get an RCR?

It affects almost the entire population of players and characters

[wangxiuming]

Does Improved Combat Expertise still exist?