Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2022)

[EasternCheesE]

Does Improved Combat Expertise still exist?

It exists right now, but it won't after update.
CE takes its place. So everyone having ICE will get 1 free feat but suffer -1 AC maximum for that mode when they RCR.
CE was -3/+3, CE will become -5/+5 with ability to choose exact number of penalty/bonus.

[Kitunenotsume]

<i>Incapacitate Your Opponent:</i> You can attempt to incapacitate your opponent instead of executing them. This ability is identical to execution, but the damage is nonlethal rather than lethal, and non-monks do not take the -4 penalty on the grapple check.

Question: Does this mean that Nonlethal damage is being considered for implementation, or just that you can't kill the oppoonent when you drop them to 0 HP using Incapacitate?
Furthermore, does this have any practical distinction on NPCs, given that at 0 HP they usually die, and leaving them at 1 HP and unconcious is mechanically trivial to convert to dead and skip the -4 penalty?

[artemitavik]

As really cool as some of this stuff is, I disagree with the removal of Tumble as passive AC. It completely and totally guts any and all tanks immediately.

Current:
ICE = 6 AC + 3 if you have 30 tumble (common), for 9 AC - 6 AB.

Upcoming:
CE= 5 AC - 5 ab, net loss 4 AC (tumble no longer counted.)
Defensive fighting= 2 AC + 3 AC tumble (5 AC) for -4 AB, net loss 4 AC

Add:
Athkatlan Triparte, level 30 fighter types will get +3 ac out of that for three fewer attacks/rnd.

At best, that gives a -1 net AC regardless of combo above, WHILE removing attacks/rnd (while the last couple rarely hit outside nat 20s anyway, there's always nat 20s, but now those chances will be gone)

This makes tanks suddenly far less effective as there is a massive difference between an unbuffed 52/53 AC and 55/56 AC. This removes a huge portion of the staying power of a tank/AC based fighter.

[Theodore01]

and it removes tumble AC from any non-defensively melee also. Not that they had good AC before.

[Steve]

And medium-low BAB based/structured builds will suffer heavily in order to retain the AC they needed to last in combat, since they do not hit as often as medium-to-high BAB structured builds do.

The Tumble change is such a massive rewrite, even if it brings the game more inline with PnP.

In defense of the changes, I can imagine this will all even itself out...but only AFTER the mobs/content is readjusted (which has been said to be on the docket, but that it will take a long time to enact).

[artemitavik]

Honestly, jsut leaving tumble as it is (though I KNOW it's not "3.5 rules" and all) will solve all these issues. Tumble for passive AC has never been the "best" solution for a thing, I know, but it's an endemic part of how the NWN1 and 2 system is physically built. Removing it requires updates and changes to literally everything else to balance it out.

In the meantime, all your martial classes quickly and pointedly become far, far less effective in any fashion offensive or defensive.

The changes causing a net 1 AC loss with the CE/ICE update is totally survivable with the addition of other feats, but having such a huge net loss that's just not recoverable is just removing a huge portion of a Melee-fighter's purpose in solo or group, not to mention utility, survivablity, etc.

alternatively, you could have the new CE version simply add tumble in as well, like Defensive Fighting is slated to do.

It would lose a bit of AC (1 net loss per the way it's done now) but that could very easily be compensated for.

[Steve]

I mostly have to laugh because literally every single one of my toons needs to be rebuilt! Both in order to mitigate the loses, as well as to implement the buffs!!

[InTheFlesh]

soon

[AgentOrange]

A melee combat upgrade sneaks in a dig at casters by applying the reworked CE's AB penalty to M/RTAs.

Also, how does the melee rogue benefit without the static +3 AC by a 30 tumble investment? Utilizing tumble for AC will require one to activate Fighting Defensively, thereby lowering AB on a build that already struggles with AB, even with a fighter or bodyguard dip. How is this an upgrade?

[Tanlaus]

You can pretty much solo any area with a hipster build. Even easier with bodyguard dip to hit and run. A 3 ac drop shouldn’t effect much unless you plan on standing there to melee… which really isn’t an option deal tactic for a rogue.

[Bobthehero]

Hard to view the update in a positive light. Sure there's a lot of new things one can do, but if you want to not risk those things backfiring, you have to invest feats. Consider the fact that one would already have to shuffle feats around to have some chance of offsetting the loss of AC from tumble being taken away, and CE being nerfed, that leaves very little space to take some of the specialised feats.

Unless I want to completely change the build I play, which... why? I like my build as is, but now it gets things I'll likely not benefit much from, end up with less AC than before and overall end up just being less than what they were prior.

There's also the fact that going tumble/fight defensively seems a lot more beneficial than going the CE route. All the benefits of the new tumble alongside less of an AB penalty? Feels like CE could use a skill synergy of sorts to make the choice less obvious.

Casters being affected by the update aimed at Martials is weird, too, considering how they're usually thighter on feat, being able to take CE/ICE and get extra AC without penalty is a sort of hidden benefit of going out of your way for it, it was never a bug, either, as this was how it was made for the game.

[404ninja]

Since they are both modes Combat Expertise and Total Defense won't be able to be active simultaneously like Parry and CE/ICE at the moment?

[AgentOrange]

Hard to view the update in a positive light. Sure there's a lot of new things one can do, but if you want to not risk those things backfiring, you have to invest feats. Consider the fact that one would already have to shuffle feats around to have some chance of offsetting the loss of AC from tumble being taken away, and CE being nerfed, that leaves very little space to take some of the specialised feats.

Unless I want to completely change the build I play, which... why? I like my build as is, but now it gets things I'll likely not benefit much from, end up with less AC than before and overall end up just being less than what they were prior.

There's also the fact that going tumble/fight defensively seems a lot more beneficial than going the CE route. All the benefits of the new tumble alongside less of an AB penalty? Feels like CE could use a skill synergy of sorts to make the choice less obvious.

Casters being affected by the update aimed at Martials is weird, too, considering how they're usually thighter on feat, being able to take CE/ICE and get extra AC without penalty is a sort of hidden benefit of going out of your way for it, it was never a bug, either, as this was how it was made for the game.

Right? It's a 2-feat commitment, not "free 6 AC". I'm uncertain where the people who felt it was "free 6 AC" for warlocks (and most casters TBH) assumed the 6 AC came from, if not eating 2 feats for it.

[artemitavik]

Ok, let me clarify something at least for myself...

I find a large portion of this update AMAZING. I really do. The grapple, the modes, the upgrades to KD and stuff, that's all super fun and good times.

But the loss of the AC, really is a deal breaker to me. An easily fixed deal breaker that requires me to completely restructure a character's build that I greatly enjoy to even try to approach the same level of effectiveness.

[Blaze]

Ok, let me clarify something at least for myself...

I find a large portion of this update AMAZING. I really do. The grapple, the modes, the upgrades to KD and stuff, that's all super fun and good times.

But the loss of the AC, really is a deal breaker to me. An easily fixed deal breaker that requires me to completely restructure a character's build that I greatly enjoy to even try to approach the same level of effectiveness.

At least 50% of the playerbase think the same way imo, the melee changes are good and looks nice, the CE, ICE and tumble nerf has such a big impact that it overshadows the positive implementations.

it's a -4 ab / -4 AC for casters (tumble + ICE = 9 AC total, CE gives 5 AC, FD + tumble gives 5 AC), I find no similarities to describe the changes if not nerf