Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2022)

[Whirlwind]

More awesome changes.

[spyvsspy]

What will the whips become? Offering Improved Disarm? Since they offer Disarm(whip) feat original

And Rali's belt of mischief, which offers Fient now

[DaloLorn]

Whips: Nothing. In fact, the feat may need to be removed from existing whips (not sure, someone correct me on this?), as the revamped Disarm feat is a whole new feat with its own ID and everything.

Reili's Belt: I assume it will grant Improved Feint?

[Theodore01]

Will knockdown from shifters wyvern, werewolf, owlbear become improved KD or do they get something else instead?

[Rhifox]

What will the whips become? Offering Improved Disarm? Since they offer Disarm(whip) feat original

And Rali's belt of mischief, which offers Fient now

Whips will no longer give Improved Disarm, but instead all disarming attacks made with whips (along with a few other weapons) will have a +2 bonus to the attempt.

Belt of Mischief will still give Feint, that'll just be called Improved Feint instead (unless I can't get the basic free Feint to work, as there are issues with it).

Will knockdown from shifters wyvern, werewolf, owlbear become improved KD or do they get something else instead?

Improved KD, yes.

When will this update be implemented?

Sometime this month.

[Steve]

Some of the philosophy behind these changes, which may not be apparent to many of the playerbase (including myself!):

For combat to be interesting, there has to be give and take. It has to involve strategy and choices made in combat. BG's design philosophy for the last decade has been bullet sponge mechanics. You get your big stats against the enemy's big stats and hit them against one another until one falls over. It's nothing but autoattack buff and bash, for both casters and martials.

I'd also note, again, that builds that can max Tumble often are unarmored/light armored builds, which are currently the strongest builds on the server.

The changes are meant at expanding the choices players can take in the middle of combat. Whether to focus on attack or offense, new movement options (Jump is functionally DDoor for martials), area control options (grappling to stop an enemy from moving, casting, or even attacking you at all), disarming an opponent to make them deal less damage, etc. Plus, the moving of many actions to free increases the number of feats players have (hey, there's your requested additional feat progression), which allows them to further customize and diversify their builds.

[Snarfy]

I'd also note, again, that builds that can max Tumble often are unarmored/light armored builds, which are currently the strongest builds on the server.

I can only assume this is referring to monks and.... ??? Which other light armor builds are the most powerful exactly? Full tumble mages?

I'll just reiterate that negating dodge AC from tumble is not going to go well for those unarmored/light armored, non-strongest builds on the server. Some of which, including my rogue, have no way to recoup that lost AC, other than to enable a defensive mode that penalizes AB, or carry yet another set of gear(in addition to the 3 sets I carry already for stealth, detection, and saving throws)... which is super appealing (/s) when you are already running at encumbrance.

[zhazz]

I'd also note, again, that builds that can max Tumble often are unarmored/light armored builds, which are currently the strongest builds on the server.

I can only assume this is referring to monks and.... ??? Which other light armor builds are the most powerful exactly? Full tumble mages?

I'll just reiterate that negating dodge AC from tumble is not going to go well for those unarmored/light armored, non-strongest builds on the server. Some of which, including my rogue, have no way to recoup that lost AC, other than to enable a defensive mode that penalizes AB, or carry yet another set of gear(in addition to the 3 sets I carry already for stealth, detection, and saving throws)... which is super appealing (/s) when you are already running at encumbrance.

Dual Wield Fighter builds with high Dexterity.
Even without UMD, Adrian can solo the Frost Giant King, using only a Heroism Potion, and a Shield Brooch. 48 AB, 56 AC, 12 APR, and double +2 Vampiric weapons. No EW, Epic Dodge, or KD immunity.

The build he is using isn't even the strongest option out there for a Dex Fighter build.

[Theodore01]

Well my dual flailing dwarf with CE on has only 47AC+4athk=51 +4s and 42ab.
He can't solo much at all and will probably retire after the 'upgrade'.

[Blame The Rogue]

when it comes to tumble, you have dual-wielders, and monks, then you have everyone else

i'll reiterate. former mechanics and gear changes have already lost my main, a fighter based sword and board, 4 ac. these changes will cost him another ac, and one ab, and he gets nothing in return

mediam ab builds will also suffer, as well as mages that dont equip shields

[Theodore01]

why not use escape artist instead of tumble for defense and that jump and leave tumble as it is?

[Steve]

when it comes to tumble, you have dual-wielders, and monks, then you have everyone else

i'll reiterate. former mechanics and gear changes have already lost my main, a fighter based sword and board, 4 ac. these changes will cost him another ac, and one ab, and he gets nothing in return

mediam ab builds will also suffer, as well as mages that dont equip shields

Here may be the problem that isn't being "sold" enough: we all know that a build needs at least 54 AC if you want to solo content in the Epics. That is, even though after reaching lvl 30 there is no penalty for dying, the idea is held by us players to not have to die, and just make it through the content to attempt to attain some rewards in the form of Items.

And, just to note, it isn't all about lvl 30 attainment, as in that we all still have to play up to lvl 30, and even in the progression our builds need as much AC as they can, if we want to solo. And these builds also need AC. And let's not forget enough damage!

But the Big Picture is this: PvE content, namely mobs and Bosses, will eventually be adjusted. So imagine, if now we build for 54 AC or more, if the mobs are adjusted down—and I'm just saying this, not knowing if truly this will be the case—perhaps 51 AC will be the new "baseline."

Which would then mean that +3 AC from Tumble isn't needed. And without needing that +3, you do not have to use Fighting Defensively and incur a -4 AB. So maybe in the end, it will be a wash, just that the numbers are now different, but the outcome is the same.

Problem is, right now, we don't know anything about that future, with any certainty. We only know the certainty of the upcoming changes as outlined in this thread. So at least, temporarily, the game mechanics will become harder for soloing.

Lastly, the most important issue that should be focused on, is the paradigm change: more challenging PvE experience. THAT is what is coming down the line. Do you, anyone, as a player, want more challenging PvE content? For myself, it sounds fun on paper, but I'm also bored to shit with mobs and bosses. If it takes me some more effort and attention to kill them, I'm not going to really find lasting satisfaction. I will enjoy winning the first few times, but than meh (hi Izzul!!! )

PvE content is static. That means inherently it will become boring at some stage in the experience, faster or shorter depending on player tolerance. The only thing that keeps PvE exciting, is when there is a DM behind it, and, the Players can be creative BEYOND the mechanics.

Look beyond the mechanics, everyone.

[Theodore01]

The only thing that keeps PvE exciting, is when there is a DM behind it

And how often does that happen? For me maybe once or twice a year. (While others enjoy them regularly every week...)


Oh and please bring back upscaling encounters!
Make mechanics fun again.

Larger or higher-level group = more and more badass spawns. Right now, the larger the group -> the duller the gameplay and challenge.
That's also a reason why some players enjoy soloing.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

I love it!

Looking forward to another 14 page thread on how it impedes people's roleplay through arbitrary dice rolls rather than one person's choice to RP or not.

well, in theory, it would work just like our current dice system... by choice unless enforced by a DM. Someone wants to emote fight you or throw stuff or hatever, and you don't wanna engage in roll-offs... well, don't.

I know, I was just being sarcastic.

Roll for... *checks options* ... Disable Regen!

[Blame The Rogue]

here's the thing about challenge, staff, as well as we players, both have a hand in how challenging the content is. first, it's how the server is built, then how we build our characters to exist within it

whenever someone states they want more challenge, the first thing to comes to mind is to ease off on the character build a little

whenever staff states everyone's ac is getting nerfed, the first thing that comes to mind is, who has/had too much ac? address that class/build specifically, rather than institute a change that will hurt the entire playerbase

my main is built well, but is a pretty basic fighter base-type sword and board build, which should be mechanically feasible on a rp server. me, as a player, shouldnt have to be a monkey-gripping cleric to enjoy server content

on the other side of this is, as i stated, he is built well...for a fighter. if i built a fighter poorly and he failed as a successful adventurer, then that would be on me

the repeated loss of ac, well, that's something seemingly outside my control. lose enough ac, and you can no longer do your job as a tank, in party, or alone. if sword and board fighters become extinct, what will the server look like?

as stated prior, this coming change would be the 5th lost ac for my fighter. if staff states that the coming mob revamp will lower all mob ab by 5, then the color of this entire conversation changes