Small casters have no staves

[Flatted Fifth]

All of the magical staves (staff of missiles, etc) at Sorcerous Sundries and High Hedge are quarterstaves, which are large weapons and therefore unequippable by halfling and gnome characters. The base game includes a magic staff item that is medium in size and equipable by all characters, so why are the large quarterstaves that are meant to be weapons used exclusively on this server?

Below: Picture of a sad halfling wizard looking upon unnecessarily unusable items that really ought to have been 1d6 medium size magic staves instead of 2d4 large quarterstaves

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[Rhifox]

Simply... the staff update was a lot of work and I kept myself limited to proper staves first. I intend on doing shortstaffs eventually, but a lot more needs to go into them because the developer who originally added them was very barebones with the implementation (didn't make any of the weapon focus feats etc). When I add spell staffs to shortstaves, it'd be part of a comprehensive update to shortstaves so that they are proper weapons rather than the half-assed things they are right now.

[ZabelSword]

Thanks for putting in the work on those staves, too bad I didn't discover them until lvl 21. The flaming burst feat works horribly during ToT pretty well for those who can't use the staves.

[Flatted Fifth]

Simply... the staff update was a lot of work and I kept myself limited to proper staves first. I intend on doing shortstaffs eventually, but a lot more needs to go into them because the developer who originally added them was very barebones with the implementation (didn't make any of the weapon focus feats etc). When I add spell staffs to shortstaves, it'd be part of a comprehensive update to shortstaves so that they are proper weapons rather than the half-assed things they are right now.

But mage staves aren't intended to be used as wespons at all They're like big wands. That's why there's no weapon focus, etc, feats for them. That's intentional. Even if there was, do you really think a wiz or sorc is going to get weapon focus magic staff instead of any of the numerous spellcasting boosting feats? The "it has to be perfect or not at all" mentality leaves players out in the cold. Great work on the staves, but you screwed halfling and gnome characters with the base item choice.

[Rhifox]

Simply... the staff update was a lot of work and I kept myself limited to proper staves first. I intend on doing shortstaffs eventually, but a lot more needs to go into them because the developer who originally added them was very barebones with the implementation (didn't make any of the weapon focus feats etc). When I add spell staffs to shortstaves, it'd be part of a comprehensive update to shortstaves so that they are proper weapons rather than the half-assed things they are right now.

But mage staves aren't intended to be used as wespons at all They're like big wands. That's why there's no weapon focus, etc, feats for them. That's intentional.

In pnp, magic staffs are equivalent to quarterstaffs in terms of their appearance and stats (although one can make the case for clubs, as the sourcebook describes some magic staffs as looking like cudgels). RAW, they're not explicitly weapons (except the ones specifically said to be, like staff of power and staff of the woodlands). Those ones are specifically described as +2 quarterstaffs, but many DMs RAI'ed the other staffs as +0 quarterstaffs. Likewise, in 5e, it is specifically stated in the rules that magic staffs count as quarterstaves if used in melee. Magic staffs being usable as quarterstaffs if used in melee is a pretty standard convention.

I started on quarterstaffs, as those are the more classic mage staff (and one that has, for years, needed versions actually useful for mages).

I should also say, the general lack of different sizes of weapons is a fault of Bioware/Obsidian. Every weapon type should have different size versions of it. Medium-sized greatswords for small characters, for example. Unfortunately, due to hardcoding, we're limited in our ability to fix this oversight (and believe me, I tried to figure out a solution when I was making shortspears).

The "it has to be perfect or not at all" mentality leaves players out in the cold. Great work on the staves, but you screwed halfling and gnome characters with the base item choice.

You're the one demanding 'it has to be perfect or not at all'. I already said that adding shortstaffs would have doubled the amount of work needing to be done. I focused on quarterstaffs with intent to do shortstaffs later, because I wasn't 'trying to make it perfect or not at all'. I was doing the default staff first. I also had some concerns over the ability for Medium-sized characters being able to use spell staffs with a shield without needing monkey grip. While that wasn't the only reason in delaying it, it was something I wanted more time to consider the balance for.

As for "screwing over halfling and gnome characters", those very same halfling and gnome characters got access to non-large spears in the form of shortspears last year. So, kindly, be patient.

[Flatted Fifth]

Simply... the staff update was a lot of work and I kept myself limited to proper staves first. I intend on doing shortstaffs eventually, but a lot more needs to go into them because the developer who originally added them was very barebones with the implementation (didn't make any of the weapon focus feats etc). When I add spell staffs to shortstaves, it'd be part of a comprehensive update to shortstaves so that they are proper weapons rather than the half-assed things they are right now.

But mage staves aren't intended to be used as wespons at all They're like big wands. That's why there's no weapon focus, etc, feats for them. That's intentional.

In pnp, magic staffs are equivalent to quarterstaffs in terms of their appearance and stats (although one can make the case for clubs, as the sourcebook describes some magic staffs as looking like cudgels). RAW, they're not explicitly weapons (except the ones specifically said to be, like staff of power and staff of the woodlands). Those ones are specifically described as +2 quarterstaffs, but many DMs RAI'ed the other staffs as +0 quarterstaffs. Likewise, in 5e, it is specifically stated in the rules that magic staffs count as quarterstaves if used in melee. Magic staffs being usable as quarterstaffs if used in melee is a pretty standard convention.

I started on quarterstaffs, as those are the more classic mage staff (and one that has, for years, needed versions actually useful for mages).

I should also say, the general lack of different sizes of weapons is a fault of Bioware/Obsidian. Every weapon type should have different size versions of it. Medium-sized greatswords for small characters, for example. Unfortunately, due to hardcoding, we're limited in our ability to fix this oversight (and believe me, I tried to figure out a solution when I was making shortspears).

The "it has to be perfect or not at all" mentality leaves players out in the cold. Great work on the staves, but you screwed halfling and gnome characters with the base item choice.

You're the one demanding 'it has to be perfect or not at all'. I already said that adding shortstaffs would have doubled the amount of work needing to be done. I focused on quarterstaffs with intent to do shortstaffs later, because I wasn't 'trying to make it perfect or not at all'. I was doing the default staff first. I also had some concerns over the ability for Medium-sized characters being able to use spell staffs with a shield without needing monkey grip. While that wasn't the only reason in delaying it, it was something I wanted more time to consider the balance for.

As for "screwing over halfling and gnome characters", those very same halfling and gnome characters got access to non-large spears in the form of shortspears last year. So, kindly, be patient.

There is a medium sized greatsword for small characters. A longsword. Any character can wield with two hands, and get the Str * 1.5 damage bonus, any weapon that is their size category or larger. For example, a gnome is a "small" character and can two-hand a small or medium weapon, but cannot two-hand a "tiny" weapon (currently only daggers and kukri are tiny**) and cannot equip a large weapon at all (except with monkey grip). A human is a "medium" character so can two-hand a medium weapon or a large weapon but not a small or tiny one. Monkey grip gives a -2 penalty when in use but allows medium characters to one-hand a large weapon and small characters to one hand a medium, and allows small characters to equip large weapons.

It's not just the staves, though. Look at the small weapons in the epic stores and loot table. Except for the maces in the basement of the mermaid, an AWFUL lot of them have spell use per day properties that not only artificially inflate the price but make unequipping them from the quickslot a PITA because instead of unequipping it just activates the spell. And look at that cold iron kukri in Terrens shop. It's got a lot of damage bonuses against specific creatures that really aren't a threat to most people by the time they have enough coin to afford the kukri. There's only maybe one or two medium/non finesse weapons that have this sort of thing going on but it's most of the small and/or finessable weapons. It SEEMS like a deliberate snub to small characters and rogues of any size from devs past.


(** The other area where size of weapon counts is in two weapon fighting. In TWF, the off-hand weapon must be one or more size categories smaller than the character, or else the attack penalty jumps from -2 to -4 unless they have oversize two weapon fighting. So a human would need an off-hand weapon of size small or tiny, but a gnome or halfling requires a tiny off-hand weapon. That's why I suggested in another thread that 1d4 light hammers be changed from small to tiny. So small characters can have a blunt off-hand weapon. It should only require editing a 2da and the dialog tlk. )

[Flatted Fifth]

What about just giving gnomes and halflings monkey grip for free? Would that be OP in actual practice? I just mean that since employing monkey grip to equip a large weapon or one hand a medium gives a -2 attack penalty and small characters already get -2 strength, and the only finessable weapon that would be at all affected by monkey grip for a small character is the rapier.

I'm not 100% sure that monkey grip allows small characters to equip large weapons, but I'm about 94% sure. I would have to test when I get home.

IC we could just say gnomes and halflings have big hands and feet.

ETA OR, more work but possibly better, create a new feat that gives gnomes and halflings a version of monkey grip that applies ONLY to quarterstaves, spears, and halberds. Give this to halflings and gnomes for free.

Feat: Polearm Wield
Requirement: Halfling or Gnome
The character can wield large polearms (quarterstaves, spears, and halberds) at a -4 attack penalty (ignore this penalty if the character has the Monkey Grip feat and use the Monkey Grip -2 penalty instead). The character is still required to have the relevant weapon proficiency

[DM Winter]

Works, I have a gnome wiz that I took monkey grip.

I don't really care to make a char thats too strong, so I don't mind giving up a feat to be able to use real cool staves.

Giving monkey grip for free I think would be bad, since its not necessarily that the gnome would use it for staves

[Flatted Fifth]

Works, I have a gnome wiz that I took monkey grip.

I don't really care to make a char thats too strong, so I don't mind giving up a feat to be able to use real cool staves.

Giving monkey grip for free I think would be bad, since its not necessarily that the gnome would use it for staves

Yeah, I thought of that too, that's why I edited my post with an idea for a new feat.