Feedback on Server Mechanics Direction

[Moonsong]

Long story short: I can agree to 3..

I know it's not easy, but level cap at 15 wil sweep the server empty, or at least most plyers will leave i would think.

No change is no good for me either. I tried to make a stronger build, but after the lastest changes, it seems weak again. I was hoping to be able to go anywhere without groups. But right now that's impossible... again.

So please don't create mobs too strong. Otherwise it will only encourage the powerbuilders to make even more senseless Powerbuilds. Rigth now only powerbuiilds can get the good loot solo. Amd no, don't tell me to go with groups. I barely find groups at my playtimes.

Please give everyone a chance to get some nice loot, even those with balaced non-powerbuilds.

Also the server lacks of ways of income for non-combat concepets. I ask to add some money for picking RP- skills, too.

[Eien]

The lower the cap the better.

I recognise this won't get me any fans but it is my honest opinion.

Proposal 1 all day every day.

I will carry on dreaming as it will never happen.

[Rhifox]

I'll lay out my thoughts in greater detail at some point later in the thread, but right now proposal 2 is the one that intrigues me the most. I have some concerns though; is the 3by20 staying ? Are PrCs being changed to properly scale for more than 10 levels like blackguard and assassin ? Also, how are the mechanics going to make sense from a pnp perspective ? Elminster would still be a chump compared to a well built lvl 20 BG character.

I would like to remove 3b20. It would not be staying in either 1 or 2, obviously, as the issues needing 3b20 no longer exist in those two systems. I've now added that as one of the benefits of 1 and 2 in the original post. In 3 or 4, that's up in the air.

PRCs could be made to properly scale, yes.

In proposal 1, they use their pnp stats. In 3 and 4, they are scaled up with HD x2 (so Elminster would be level 70 instead of 35). In 2... either the same as 3 and 4, or maybe +10 HD instead of times 2.

[Antras89]

Long stiry short: I can agree to 3..

No change is no good for me either. I tried to make a stronger build, but after the lastest changes, it seems weak again. I was hoping to be able to go anywhere without groups. But right now that's impossible... again.

So please don't create mobs too strong. Otherwise it will only encourage the powerbuilders to make even more senseless Powerbuilds. Rigth now only powerbuiilds can get the good loot solo. Amd no, don't tell me to go with groups. I barely find groups at my playtimes.

Please give everyone a chance to get some nice loot, even those with balaced non-powerbuilds.

Hard to not agree, also problem are Saves, im not sure if some mobs or boss even have save againts roll 1 (so its no chance to spell to work) not mention eh, damn spell resistant. Thtas why i suggested in other post to buff default DC, from 10 to 15, and in the same made a hard cap for this (to reduce insane DC builds)

[Rhifox]

Inflated saves are getting addressed no matter which proposal is chosen. It comes with the territory of using properly pnp-inspired mob design instead of 'let's beat the player' design.

[JIŘÍ]

I wonder why level cap 15 instead of 20?

20 allows full progression for a class.

Myself i am fine with either option that would remove inflation of numbers in every aspect.

Capping levels below 30 would also make mjority of PCs relevant. Just look at dm event. Level 30 pcs will cut trough anything is thrown at them and if DM inflates these npcs, then lower levels die.

[cosmic ray]

I like proposal 2 and I would like proposal 1 if the cap were 20 and not 15. Fifteen seems a bit randomly awkward.

Some other things would have to be adjusted though. Off the top of my head:

- Some PrC requirements would have to be lowered, some of those classes would have to be shrunk in levels (archmage [it's only 5 levels in pnp anyway], hierophant [it's ten levels in pnp, but no penalties] etc);

- all the best epic gear with trillions of different +4 bonuses would have to go out the window - this would likely have to include those busted grandfathered items we all know exist;

- greater dispel would have to be nerfed and its stupid ubiquitousness also decreased;

- 3b20 rule would have to be obliterated;

- there would be an increased lack of build variety, so that would require tweaking of classes and mechanics to compensate for;

- DC-based casters, contrary to certain unproven nonsensical claims made recently, are not good now and would be way worse after such a change, as the epic DC bonuses would be gone and the ability to mix several DC-based PRCs for maximum effect would be considerably decreased - all the while, save stacking would remain and save-boosting spells would retain their maximum potential anyway;

- the relation between AC and AB would have to be careful analysed, as many methods for increasing the former would remain, but those for increasing the latter would be gone, or would be harder to achieve and combine - debuffs like curse song would also be weaker;

- there was one last point I wanted to mention, but I forgot what it was whilst writing this text.

Edit: I think I remember now: if going with propossal 2, which I quite like, I think those bonuses, which are quite meaningful in pnp, would be seen as way too weak in a module like BG with all the epic store content we have become used to. Either the bonuses would have to be boosted or the gear would have to be nerfed.



@Rhifox:

could you add the option for a referendum in this thread?

[Rhifox]

I wonder why level cap 15 instead of 20?

Because 15 is our narrative model - this is the max level of challenges we tend to face on a storytelling level. DnD is designed with ever-increasing narrative challenges as you gain levels. 15-20 is worldwide stories. 10-15 is kingdom/national. 5-10 is local region. 1-5 is local village/town. On BG, we cap out at kingdom/nation-level stories, thus level 15 cap.

[Antras89]

I wonder why level cap 15 instead of 20?

Because 15 is our narrative model - this is the max level of challenges we tend to face on a storytelling level. DnD is designed with ever-increasing narrative challenges as you gain levels. 15-20 is worldwide stories. 10-15 is kingdom/national. 5-10 is local region. 1-5 is local village/town. On BG, we cap out at kingdom/nation-level stories, thus level 15 cap.

So, why to not add additional narrative option for "Above" 15 cap? we have tools, we can do location (ofc take some time) for other planes and in same time, use Epick book - so in this case events outside of low areas.
what about "i want to rulle world cus i have 30 lvl!"? answer is simple, characters who are above 15 narrative have more dangerous things on they heads to easly "overrun" some things. (hunting monsters as example or competition)

[Eien]

I wonder why level cap 15 instead of 20?

Because 15 is our narrative model - this is the max level of challenges we tend to face on a storytelling level. DnD is designed with ever-increasing narrative challenges as you gain levels. 15-20 is worldwide stories. 10-15 is kingdom/national. 5-10 is local region. 1-5 is local village/town. On BG, we cap out at kingdom/nation-level stories, thus level 15 cap.

I'll add the fact that Lvl 9 spells are technically meant to be rare, and meaningful, but we throw them around like toilet paper.

I've played many d&d campaigns below level 15 and I've never felt my creativity was being limited by having less levels. You can make your character unique by building on the person that character is, not the powers they get.

[JIŘÍ]

Greater dispel is meant to be capable to dispel capped spellcaster in PaP.

It cannot do that thing because epic levels allow scaling beyond the bonus you add to the dispel with GD. Least according to the wiki works as written in PaP.

[JIŘÍ]

I wonder why level cap 15 instead of 20?

Because 15 is our narrative model - this is the max level of challenges we tend to face on a storytelling level. DnD is designed with ever-increasing narrative challenges as you gain levels. 15-20 is worldwide stories. 10-15 is kingdom/national. 5-10 is local region. 1-5 is local village/town. On BG, we cap out at kingdom/nation-level stories, thus level 15 cap.

Sure, but i believe that option should be included there. You propose 15 or 20 but adding bonuses for "epic levels".

So why not propose also option for 20 lvls but with no epic progression?

[renshouj]

The lower the cap the better.

I recognise this won't get me any fans but it is my honest opinion.

Proposal 1 all day every day.

I will carry on dreaming as it will never happen.

will echo this.

In an RP environment, I actually see no downside to a cap 15-20. And about high level spells, it would mean they get quite rare indeed, but that also opens up for their powers to be raised as they should be.

Will even mention, what about a 15 cap but 20 total through RP/Tasks? I understand the narrative 15, but feel a 20 might be better received though I feel getting to 20 should take RP effort instead of just monster exp

[Rhifox]

I wonder why level cap 15 instead of 20?

Because 15 is our narrative model - this is the max level of challenges we tend to face on a storytelling level. DnD is designed with ever-increasing narrative challenges as you gain levels. 15-20 is worldwide stories. 10-15 is kingdom/national. 5-10 is local region. 1-5 is local village/town. On BG, we cap out at kingdom/nation-level stories, thus level 15 cap.

So, why to not add additional narrative option for "Above" 15 cap? we have tools, we can do location (ofc take some time) for other planes and in same time, use Epick book - so in this case events outside of low areas.

We're not interested in telling epic level or planar stories. For players who want that, the Planescape server is available.

Frankly, if it was up to me, I'd go with E6 rules (level 6 cap with extra feat progression). But it's not up to me. 15 is about the highest I can stomach, personally. By that point the types of mobs you're facing are already getting ridiculous.

In any case, for level 20 cap, there's already proposal 2. Proposal 2 just has 20 as a soft cap with the option for additional, limited progression.

[cosmic ray]

I have just remembered something else: with proposals 1 and 2, divine power would have to be liberated from its current oppression and returned to its original glorious carefree days.