Feedback on Server Mechanics Direction

[JIŘÍ]

Also quite thing what i do not understand is, if you do not like play character with 15 lvl-s above or more, you can always turn off xp gained, what you have options at now on server. But forcing other people to play lets say with this limit, when most of them do not like this, its not ok at all, especiality they have option at now, same as players who do not like have h. lvls. its like hm.. "i do not like 30 lvl, like 15 lvl! so rest also need to!" xD

Sorry for grammar i hope its understable what i write?

Yeah sure, you solo play on level 15 and than have no part in the outgoing stuff at all because half or all in party are level 30. Kind of not working

[Almarea90]

Also quite thing what i do not understand is, if you do not like play character with 15 lvl-s above or more, you can always turn off xp gained, what you have options at now on server. But forcing other people to play lets say with this limit, when most of them do not like this, its not ok at all, especiality they have option at now, same as players who do not like have h. lvls. its like hm.. "i do not like 30 lvl, like 15 lvl! so rest also need to!" xD

Sorry for grammar i hope its understable what i write?

It's not a matter of people not liking high level but balance issues for both DM and Devs. If a handful of people stop at level 15 we will still have issues in balancing mobs and events

[Antras89]

Also quite thing what i do not understand is, if you do not like play character with 15 lvl-s above or more, you can always turn off xp gained, what you have options at now on server. But forcing other people to play lets say with this limit, when most of them do not like this, its not ok at all, especiality they have option at now, same as players who do not like have h. lvls. its like hm.. "i do not like 30 lvl, like 15 lvl! so rest also need to!" xD

Sorry for grammar i hope its understable what i write?

Yeah sure, you solo play on level 15 and than have no part in the outgoing stuff at all because half or all in party are level 30. Kind of not working

Then simple you do not joing parts when you know you cannot handle them. Simple.

[FearBeforeTheFlames]

I'd stick firmly to 4; and focus on homebrewing content within current systems and operating improvements in other areas. - I appreciate the thought and the work that's been done. Some of the larger radical changes have implications that have heavy penalties for players that have spent years on things they've lovingly crafted here working under the current system. Change is good; but we're an old community of friends - with amazing new editions. There's ways here to avoid nuking the camp.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

I'd stick firmly to 4; and focus on homebrewing content within current systems and operating improvements in other areas. - I appreciate the thought and the work that's been done. Some of the larger radical changes have implications that have heavy penalties for players that have spent years on things they've lovingly crafted here working under the current system. Change is good; but we're an old community of friends - with amazing new editions. There's ways here to avoid nuking the camp.

+1 for this.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Also quite thing what i do not understand is, if you do not like play character with 15 lvl-s above or more, you can always turn off xp gained, what you have options at now on server. But forcing other people to play lets say with this limit, when most of them do not like this, its not ok at all, especiality they have option at now, same as players who do not like have h. lvls. its like hm.. "i do not like 30 lvl, like 15 lvl! so rest also need to!" xD

Sorry for grammar i hope its understable what i write?

It's not a matter of people not liking high level but balance issues for both DM and Devs. If a handful of people stop at level 15 we will still have issues in balancing mobs and events

The unfortunate part is that you will still have balance issues at 20, as well as 15, and 12. With much of the server first developed under 20, then moved and curated for 30, you'll have even more work to consider when dialing it down. There's a lot of things that just don't scale well in either tipping direction. I'm not a proponent for 30, but there's too much emphasis on balancing sheets that will never satisfy rather than providing value for each of those elements beyond clicking on a red target. The missed mark is still on additional content that isn't just dungeon running.

[DaloLorn]

nope, all these stories are over now, come up with something new

This is not what a vault wipe would be. Just saying.
You're wiping the vault, not the server history and characters.

Edit:
Sometimes you gotta wipe and rebuild to make things work. Look at final fantasy 14, they basically remade the game and came back as one of the strongest MMOs around. All it takes is the will to do it.

I have always maintained, and still do now, that a blanket vault wipe is the single most effective way of killing the server. Whatever goodwill is obtained by leveling the playing field, fixing fundamental balance issues, or whatever you want to justify it with, is massively outweighed by the resentment felt when you go up to people and say "nope, all these stories are over now, come up with something new". NWN doesn't have enough players left for us to replace the people that leave in the aftermath of a vault wipe. (This would almost certainly include myself, by the way. I'd probably enjoy the server if I ever got over it, but who knows how long that could take? It's not like I can't find other things to do with my time.)

Even if we did a wipe, it'd be a mechanical one only. Players could still play the same character.

There is a measure of integration between the raw, mechanical contents of the vault, and the history and characters represented by that vault. DM rewards are the most obvious example, but "I got this from a DM" is not the only way for a character's inventory and stats to be an inextricable part of their identity. Continuing to play such a character after a vault wipe would require you to bend over backwards to justify all the various losses that character incurred during the wipe. Lost heirlooms, suddenly being unable to fend off a mere rat, everything.

I happen to have done this once before, when translating a level-capped NPC with respectable gear into a penniless level 7 PC. I didn't quite like the resulting offscreen plot, because it felt a little too contrived (to the point that it would have straight-up violated backstory rules on Ravenloft), but it at least had the mitigating circumstance of the newly-created PC being literally half a continent away from all their old belongings. What kind of ass-pull it would take to maintain continuity while reconstituting an actual wiped PC, I cannot even imagine... and you seriously view that as a valid alternative to force-closing all your PCs?

[Eien]

I cannot even imagine... and you seriously view that as a valid alternative to force-closing all your PCs?

Yes.

[artemitavik]

I would actually vote for a level 20 cap. Reasoning:

You don't need a server wipe, equipment rebalance, or any of that. The vast majority of our gear is still fairly appropriate for level 20-ish shenanigans. You still have access to all the highest end "standard" curatives like regeneration, true Res, greater restore, etc. Nothing needs to change, not the economy, the story, or anything.

All you have to do for the characters is change the cap to 20 and everyone RCRs. There will be an adjustment phase as you say, some of the prestige classes are readjusted to the PNP setup of 5 levels instead of 10, etc. No one's gear or money or background or anything needs to change.

You can key it off as changes due to the ToT, so it even fits the narrative. Kinda.

Of course Mobs would have to be adjusted, but it would get rid of the "You're level 30 in math, but only level 15 in 'reality'" which I've always found exceptionally silly due to level 15 people do not throw around Hell Balls and Greater Restores, etc like candy, not to mention that yeah, there really IS currently a large group of enemies that are way past what level 15 would probably be off adventuring against on a regular basis. However, things could be much closer to the "stock" mobs perhaps, which would cut down on the alteration needed for them. And you could just flat out get rid of things like the Balor and make it something that would perhaps more likely be there.

Essentially, IMO, if you want non-epic level balance and feel, make it non-epic level, but I feel level 15 might be too extreme of a swing.

While normally I'd be all about getting stuff to where it's closer to PNP with the other thoughts, like APR cap, that SERIOUSLY increases the already massive power gap between physical and magical combatants. It affects magical combatants hardly at all while removing potential defense and offense both from the martial combatant.

Example:
Derik has 6 attacks/rnd. He doesn't use Athkaltan Triparte, he has 6 attacks and while the last few may "usually" miss, they still have the potential to roll 20s and hit, or be used to clear away trash mobs significantly faster. If he DOES use Athkatlan T., he loses 3 attacks, but each attack gains 3 damage and he gets 3 AC... which is really nothing to sneeze at.
A Gish, who has a much lower BAB due to magic levels has more often closer to 4 attacks/rnd, 5 with haste. They might have 5 attacks, 6 with haste. They lose 1 of each, if they even use those feats. Their effectiveness drops hardly at all if at all
Mage/Clerics/FS: Almost no effect to their combat at all.

Given that the function is to look into a rebalance towards PNP it seems, I would look into an actual rebalance. Otherwise, it really is just tinkering with math and mechanics and giving a lot of people headaches for essentially what looks like no significant gain.

[DaloLorn]

You can key it off as changes due to the ToT, so it even fits the narrative. Kinda.

No way it's getting implemented anywhere near the ToT's lifespan, but I guess there's some justification for post-ToT aftershocks...

My biggest fear (aside from the huge workload, and the forced RCRing of everyone on the server, and Rhi's stated concerns about customization) is probably about the effect of a level 20 cap on multiclassing, especially on casters. Granted, there's a case to be made for this being a good thing, but I sort of like being able to get 20 levels of spell progression while still dipping my toes in other playstyles. (Some of my newer builds do it the other way around, with ~20 levels of martial progression and 10 of spellcasting... quite fun, really.)

[Antras89]

True. I propably do not touch at all lvls and prestiges and other restrctions, but change other things, like spawns, items, mobs, since with whatever option will be chose, this thing need to change also.

[edmaster]

1. would be ideal for a new server i think, I would even go to level 20 cap, I.E Ravenloft Style, but again, better for a new server than one that has been around for almost as long as My server, if not longer. A level 20 character more or less is your Retired Vet who has seen a bunch of shit and only ever gets involved if the Kingdom is in Danger and shit.

2. would have to be tested to get a feel of things, not sure how it would work out

3. This is closer to NWN1's Rule.

4. Probably the best way forward in my Opinion, considering Player base and age of the server.

[Winterborne]

4.

I honestly think I'd not be interested in sticking around with anything else. Part of the fun of the game to me is character building and deep diving on and digging into builds and mechanics. If the game ceases to be nwn2 anymore I would not really be interested in continuing to play as the mechanical aspect is part of what I enjoy. Further, I believe it will make the barrier for entry for new players even more steep than it already is in a "I came here knowing the game and tried to build and how I thought things work isn't how they work and now my character sucks and I am not having fun" way, which is a thing that already happens due to how many differences the server has.

This is a situation where I feel like being more like PnP is not the right choice. If I wanted to be playing a tabletop game I'd do that, but I'm here because I want to play nwn2.

This may be incorrect but 4 also seems like the least amount of work for the devs. Obviously all options are a monumental task but at least with option 4 it seems like it would mostly be tweaking knobs on things we already have and not going "Ok we need to develop a character progression system from scratch" when we already have levels.

I'd go homebrew where level 30 on BGTSCC is its own thing and levels don't have the same meaning and challenge expectations as PnP in a completely homebrew way and balance the world accordingly.

4 would also let you do things like do areas a couple at a time and ask people to test them and see how they felt. The others you'd be needing to do everything at once to know it seems and so 4 would work best for a staggered implementation by volunteer staff.

[AsuraKing]

1>2>3>4

For me personally I would choose option #1 with an E6 system, In my... 16 years of playing this game all of the servers that have felt the most immersive have been lower level cap servers. I've played on servers capped at level 8, 15, 20 etc. The lower you keep the level cap, the more engaging the community becomes IMO. When everyone is fairly close in level you get far more interaction between players and more people interested in grouping up for adventures. To me, it would be ideal if something like walking from Soubar -> Nashkel would be an adventure in it's own, if levels got crunched down you'd be able to have the day-to-day traveling be more engaging and dangerous without dropping epic level mobs on standard trade ways.

Now with a level 15 cap, I'd suggest perhaps also looking into either revamping some current PrCs into lvl5 PrCs or perhaps adding a few more for flavor's sake. The big issue with lower level caps can be builds all ending up the same with little setting people apart, so more options for flavor that dont require lots of levels would be nice.

Disclaimer: I didnt read anyone else's responses before making mine.

[Zar'shalee]

1 or 2 for me.

I would be even more radical in this. In addition to proposal 1 and 2 I would add hard cap on XP you can get daily by killing/grinding mobs and leave only RP XP on unlimited gain. And also full removal of repeatable quests or turn them into one shot quests.

People are afraid of wipe like it is something what would ruin their RP experience or ability to RP here further. Because you are playing on roleplaying server mainly to do roleplay and not circle grind dungeons or make character builds what break the game, right?.... Right?

Aside of that, server economy is non-existant and broken because there was never wipe here. Amount of gold in circulation is ridiculous. Prices of items are insane as attempt to make at least some gold sink. And on top of that vault wipe will be needed at some point anyway if full fledged crafting system gonna make it into the game. Because why you would do that in enviroment with broken economy makes no sense.

Besides vault wipe would not mean "lore wipe" all characters and storylines would remain.

The whole mentality of "RP starts at level 30" is what plagues this server (among other things) and this is perfect opportunity to change that. Your way to the top should be a journey, not fast, ASAP grind fest. Dont be afraid of radical changes. Super slow character progression is fun.