Feedback on Server Mechanics Direction

[Steve]

I don't understand the extreme fear of vault wipes…

Besides, we're all adults with real jobs now, and not school kids ignoring homework to play games all the time. Our hobbies stopped being the focus of our lives when we joined the workforce and started having to pay bills.

Perhaps it’s not fear as much as exhaustion. Like you wrote, playing games all the time is far from possible for the majority of us.

I think it took me 5 years to reach my first Level 30 toon. Not that it even was a goal. But it’s also not like staying Level 5 is going to be an interesting experience on BGTSCC—there just is little focus and little excitement to remain low level when you have a Level 30 sandbox. Going against the grain of everybody with a Level 30 character can only be fun if you play in a bubble with a few others and ignore the world at large. But at that point there are a bunch of other NWN2 servers still running to have a private campaign.

I do think there is massive bloat on BGTSCC. And yes, a wipe would clear that bloat out. But a wipe only makes sense if soooooo many other systems came online, so that the Race to Bloated 30 wouldn’t drive whatever player base remained.

Some weeks ago, I too suggested in PM to Rhifox that someone her ideas for an improved server experience seemed far likely better suited to a whole new Server, copied from BGTSCC but better designed. I’d join it. And if it was truly superior to the “old” BGTSCC that was left running, I might never look back.

[Pan-some]

yeah BGTSCC should alway be ...... So make a new server...But keep BGTSCC always as its own server......

[Rhifox]

And let's be honest, if you don't want to lose the players, I would suggest to take a step back in the combat changes, because some classes like warlocks have been obliterated by the new ICE and Tumble

No, they haven't. Most mobs have nothing but Natural AC, which is completely ignored by Ranged Touch attacks. Warlocks with CE on have gone from needing to roll higher than 1 or 2 to needing to roll higher than 5. Even mobs that have more Dodge AC are still exceedingly easy to hit by RTAs. Now, for warlocks used to being able to do everything with zero drawbacks, it might seem like a hit, but to everyone else it's a long-needed bugfix that brought warlocks back down to earth.

Tumble hasn't changed at all yet.

and I would also suggest to use realistic builds and realistic stats for the PvE blueprints with the exception of bosses because that will make it harder than overinflated HP, but also more fun because every build will be able to do something, and we powerbuilders are going to find ways to wipe the entire PvE by ourselves anyway, so making it harder for us will just make it unplayable for the rest of the players. If we want to, we are still gonna be the top players in terms of mechanical power, no matter the changes you apply, so it makes no sense to bother about nerfing things based on what we do, because that doesn't nerf the powerbuilder but the rest of the non powerbuilding players.

What do you think I'm doing? Again, I have to keep saying it, people need to stop responding based on the current system when I've said time and again that these changes are being made with regards to the new system, which completely reworks every mob and dungeon in the game. This thread was started because a decision needed to be reached as it determines how these new mobs will be made.

If proposal 1 goes in, mobs can be statted directly from the sourcebook.

If proposal 2 goes in, mobs use their sourcebook stats, possibly scaled up by 50%.

If proposal 3 goes in, mobs use their sourcebook stats scaled up to twice their pnp HD.

If proposal 4 goes in, same as 3, but mob HP is maximized instead of halved.


In all systems, the baseline is the actual pnp stats and abilities, not the nonsense currently in use on the server. This thread is not 'nerf the player lel'. It's "what do we want our new baseline of content to be?'. The existing baseline is being wiped clean.

[Ghost]

This server is Low RP with a high player base and regardless of my opinion about a big percentage of that player base, it's what keeps the server alive. This is not played as RP server but as Neverwinter Nights 3: World of Warcraft Edition, and I would recommend you to stick with it.

I wasn't going to comment any more in this thread, but this made me want to do so. If you feel like this server is low RP, you might want to explore it a bit more. There's a lot of deep RP going on, if one takes a moment away from the grinding, PvP chasing and build-one-upping to just engage with other players who are actually RPing and try to get involved with player and/or DM plots.

I frankly find your comment insulting.

[Blaze]

And let's be honest, if you don't want to lose the players, I would suggest to take a step back in the combat changes, because some classes like warlocks have been obliterated by the new ICE and Tumble

No, they haven't. Most mobs have nothing but Natural AC, which is completely ignored by Ranged Touch attacks. Warlocks with CE on have gone from needing to roll a 1 or 2 to needing to roll a 5. Even mobs that have more Dodge AC are still exceedingly easy to hit by RTAs. Now, for warlocks used to being able to do everything with zero drawbacks, it might seem like a hit, but to everyone else it's a long-needed bugfix that brought warlocks back down to earth.

Tumble hasn't changed at all yet.

As a warlock player I can assure you that warlocks weren't unbalanced compared to at least 20 other different builds that I prefer not to list/post here, casters and melee/ranged in general.

The new combat system has considerably lowered warlocks AC, counting that it has now become mandatory to have uncanny dodge.

Warlocks were one trick ponies, 2 skillpoints level, no ability to choose PrCs apart from 4, dragonslayer, hellfire warlock, daggerspell mage and feylock, blackguard is not a warlock PrC.

The drawback of being a warlock is the RP itself, especially if you choose PrCs as blackguard and hellfire warlock, I think the discussion about '' team evil '' has expressed itself enough about this issue.

I have been playing the warlock class for years on NWN2 and the only one I think knows as much or more than I do is Insomniac, no offense, but to say that the warlock did not suffer a nerf is such a big lie that it cannot stand.
Some time ago the problem related to Repelling blast / Tempest blast / Undead Bane blast was solved, I first of all said that these three invocations were clearly unbalanced and that it was right to modify and nerf all of them.

I conclude by trying to stay on topic, if you want to address the discussion on the warlock nerf (which I have already expressed in the past) you are free to send me a message on discord.

Among the various options, the only one that does not ruin the current gameplay by upsetting it and making it even more monotonous in my opinion is 4.
The first two would irreparably destroy some classes, even though they are the ones that attract me the most having played in harcore rp server, being level 12 after 4 years of active RP was a luxury for me
The third would make non caster classes completely obsolete, if the attack cap is a problem do it with the blueprints (NPCs), not with the players (PCs)

In conclusion, do not further distort the current gameplay but rather improve the PvE side with stronger bosses that do not necessarily have to be a balor with 15k hp and 70 AC, but a group of NPCs with different classes, the bandit leader (13 fighter / 7WM / 10FB), the bandit cleric (30 cleric), the bandit assassin (13 rogue / 9 assassin / 3 Bodyguard / 5 Invisible blade) etc

Cheers! <3

[mrm3ntalist]

This server is Low RP with a high player base and regardless of my opinion about a big percentage of that player base, it's what keeps the server alive. This is not played as RP server but as Neverwinter Nights 3: World of Warcraft Edition, and I would recommend you to stick with it.

I wasn't going to comment any more in this thread, but this made me want to do so. If you feel like this server is low RP, you might want to explore it a bit more. There's a lot of deep RP going on, if one takes a moment away from the grinding, PvP chasing and build-one-upping to just engage with other players who are actually RPing and try to get involved with player and/or DM plots.

I frankly find your comment insulting.

I do not think it's an insulting comment. It's just someone's view, in this case my view, and I've been respectul about it, but you can disagree with me.

Now, aside of the attacks against my persona because of the PvP incidents (There were only incidents when I won and none when I lost) and my OP builds, I've tried to find that Deep RPing since 2015 when I joined for the first time (I think I was using a different name since I legally changed my name to Nathaniel not too many years ago) and I've never experienced it. That's why I left the server many times through this years to high and hardcore RPing servers, like this time to The Rise of Neverwinter, and here I simply adapted to what I saw, which was people running from A to B and grinding, and there's nothing wrong with it since it's what BG players like, but I don't consider it RPing.

I love the comments when people say that they dont play here any more and criticize the player base without even knowing them. Just say your opinion about what you want to see on this server since you care so much and spare us about how the rest are playing this game. Trust me, you dont want me to post here my opinion about yourself and you RP in general.

[Planehopper]

This isn't going to devolve into a player vs player personality debate. Stay on topic (the value of our RP is not on topic), or go elsewhere. This thread is to remain open so any furtherance either in response to this warning or to each other will result in removal of access.

Thanks for understanding.

[Flasmix]

I haven't actually made a vote yet, just had questions which I can reckon the answers to after all the extra posts.

My vote is #4 with an idea.

From what I've read, the vision of the server is to create an element of balance between what players can do solo vs what should require a party to accomplish. Killing an Ogre vs. a Dragon for example. The Dragon, depending on size, SHOULD require a party while I can accept a player killing an Ogre. There are a few considerations that come to mind.
- Time zone restrictions might not allow party play.
- There are players who enjoy just being able to solo through a dungeon.
- Underdark doesn't have a large player base so finding others to group with is difficult.

There is a path to accomplish both and take away from neither while bettering the server with additions.

1) Monster overhaul - Keep the mechanics/stats the same but change models and names of the mobs that should not be able to be solo'd. Examples: The Dracolich becomes an undead golem, the White Wyrm becomes a half-dragon, and the Balor becomes a Marilith. Take a look at all the creatures in different dungeons and tone them down to something that would still work while not being what is considered the end game of D&D monsters.

2) New dungeons created with a 'You must gather your party' mechanic - Wanna make a new dungeon that has a black dragon? Have the entrance transition require anybody who tries to cross it to have a minimum amount of required party members to be within 60 feet of the transition and it warps everybody in at once. Put in mechanics and puzzles that require having multiple party members. The most simple example being a switch that opens a door at the end of a hallway but the door stays open for only a few seconds. On the other side of the door is a button that can open it for whoever had to stay behind to pull the switch. A Lich boss might have magic crystals which recharge over time that make the lich immune to damage, requiring some party members to split off to damage the crystals to drop the immunity again. The incentive to do these dungeons could be increased chance of epic items from the chests/boss loot. This would also restrict the "epic" monsters to DM events and these new dungeons only.

This update would not change the fundamental mechanics of the server while allowing the RP aspect to align with the vision. In short, it should please mostly everybody.

[mrm3ntalist]

If a dev uses that as I reason I fully feel for them - its gonna be work for everyone on this side of things, likely - but 1,2,3, or 4... its all a rework.

This is false and very misleading, especially coming from a dev. All options will need rework since the team plans to redo the PvE environment and mostly the mobs/NPCs. Options 1 and 2 though, require to rework EVERYTHING. Classes, feats, spells game mechanics... EVERYTHING. So ye, the amount of work that is needed for option 4 is much less than the first 2 options. And that is only the work needed. If you add the planning, testing and discussing needed, options 1 and 2 are mental for an existing server.

Did i mention that i vote for 4?

[Tekill]

I was one or two but now I think I might change my vote to four.

From reading this thread the big fear or concern seems to revolve around:
A slow death-leaving the game as is and letting inevitable entropy do its thing.
Or
A total implosion- By taking a chance on big changes to increase popularity and it failing..

We should not worry about either fear. Because for the time being, there is a loyal community that likes the game as it is. And that should be enough.

Most of us can agree that at least some of the time, change is good. This game has evolved a lot over the years and I hope to peek my head in and see how this persistent world continues to evolve in the years to come (as long as I have not worn out my welcome).

Definitely keep polishing the existing server but keep it basically as is.

But as mentioned, an excellent option would be to have a second server that mirrors the original but with different rules. The same setting, but it could be a low magic item, level capped, no grinding with maybe even perma death....maybe smaller...no UD....or only the UD!!!

Sure it would split the current population. But we would also have more variety. I would totally play on both servers. I think that by giving us the ability to let us experiment with different play styles I think it could create a bit of buzz that would bring new and old players to the game.

So let's just all stand back and let Rhifox get to work on the new server!
YAY!

[blazerules]

My opinion on all four proposals. Bit late to the party with work and all. My tired brain isn't great at articulating much of anything but I'll try my best.

I'll preface this with what I personally find most important. That being balance and mechanics sticking close to IC. So if you are level 15 mechanically, you are level 15 in character.

I really, strongly detest mechanical 30, narrative 15. But understand why it is.

Proposal 1: Level Cap 15
Instead of a hardcap, a softcap. Except the XP required to hit level 16 is insanely high. You could say use higher levels as a reward for certain players. This would also put IC power in line with OOC power. If someone is level 16 mechanically they are also that in character. And would be a pretty significant reward for doing something huge. Another carrot on a stick and makes XP rewards in events more meaningful.

So long as such rewards are kept very, very rare. I know Tales of Moonsea does this with a soft cap and it works very well for them.

Proposal 2: FRCS Epic Rules
Best idea in my opinion. Keeps options open for more customization of how your character plays since you still gain "levels" just not traditionally. I would say flexibility is almost as important as keeping things in line and sane. Seems like it would address power creep, do things in a way that at least allows "leveling" beyond and not something that feels like a half measure that everything is.

Massive big plus from me if this means whatever level you are mechanically is what level you are in character/narratively. That being 20 if you are 20 (Ignoring the epic level stuff since it doesn't really "count". I guess you can think of it less as levels and more adventuring/fighting/etc experience). Since anything above that really feels like it'd be Yes we are equally strong but I've polished my skills just a little bit more.

Proposal 3: 4 APR Cap
I'll admit I like this option the least out of all four. To me this feels like "The worst of all worlds" option. The change is small, but you still keep the whole mechanically 30 in character 15 problem. Which is honestly something that does bug me personally since I am a believer that mechanics should equal IC as much as reasonably possible.

Right now its not. But going for an option that keeps that separate to me feels like a cop out but its also not the goal of the changes. It is just as a player it does feel somewhat unsatisfying.

Proposal 4: No Change
Neutral on this. It is what it is.

On Vault Wipes
No. Nope. Frankly this seems like a bad idea that would probably cause an exodus of players and is a good idea on paper but bad in practice. From a personal standpoint I don't have the time to relevel characters anymore due to work. And also carrying a lot of stuff on Yuri that has personal, emotional significance from all the years that have gone by. It's like deleting all the RL pictures I have of my friends, pets, family etc. Not huge in the grand scheme of things but ouch.

I feel like to me at least it'd be a great sign of "Well I'm back at 0. May as well give the other servers a look. I heard a lot about some other server that people keep raving on about."

But the only thing keeping me on BGTSCC is my character as I don't even play alts due to the time commitment.

So in order of what I personally like.
#1 Option 2 FRCS Epic Rules
#2 Option 4 No Change
#3 Option 1 Level Cap 15
#4 Option 3 4 APR Cap

The main problem I see is option 2 looks like it requires a ton of work.

To be honest the way dungeons and spawning works in BGTSCC is also not fantastic, great or even good. Passable? Yeah sure. And hopefully that'll be part of the PvE rework in some form. I've played on servers that went further than MMO spawning of mobs by simply spawning them up further ahead. Which was honestly a godsend for any ranged characters, made tracking a ton more useful and of course made thinking ahead/tactics etc something that was valuable. Right now things practically spawn atop of you.

Not to mention mobs metagame the hell out of your saves and immunities. There's more to this issue of PvE than simply attacks, damage, HP etc. The AC meta that was mentioned by Artemitavik etc. BGTSCC is an old and venerable server but some aspects of it feel decrepit.

If I'm being entirely honest I think sticking to PnP is the wrong way to go. Not everything translates perfectly or even well, but I do believe we stray away from it for something that makes more sense for how NWN2 works.

The only thing I can say for certain at least is that changes are needed. While avoiding it is great from a personal emotional standpoint doesn't seem ideal for the long term health of the server itself. Things are broken and I doubt there is anyone who doesn't see it. The main problem is how to ease into something new after all these years? I'm sure it'll be a positive change but if it's done it has to work perfectly right out of the gate or suffer massive blowback.

And if I were to be entirely honest all options sound only great in a vacuum for a brand new server. Some of the options seem practically catastrophic for BGTSCC as it is now. Just about anything is an attempt to walk through a minefield.

[Freckles]

This server is Low RP with a high player base and regardless of my opinion about a big percentage of that player base, it's what keeps the server alive. This is not played as RP server but as Neverwinter Nights 3: World of Warcraft Edition, and I would recommend you to stick with it.

I wasn't going to comment any more in this thread, but this made me want to do so. If you feel like this server is low RP, you might want to explore it a bit more. There's a lot of deep RP going on, if one takes a moment away from the grinding, PvP chasing and build-one-upping to just engage with other players who are actually RPing and try to get involved with player and/or DM plots.

I frankly find your comment insulting.

Well, that's the thing. I was gonna use the same quote at first but I like to quote this response to it. I wouldn't call it World of Warcraft but rather Diablo but that's beside the point. My point is there are two playerbases here and both can live with each other. And we heard all the arguments of both sides already. Going rp only at a certain level or only having access to level by forcing everyone into rp is not doing the trick at least not for me. I rp with friends in my own bubble mostly. It simply is where the fun is for me. Everytime I joined some faction and all of a sudden everything just happens on the forum was when I made a new toon. So, that's not for me but I only speak for me here.
Stuff that bothers me the most is the possibility to make characters that are so godlike that there simply is no way to be taken serious by them unless you have an equally strong character aka to have powerbuilds around forces me to go into powerbuilding. Ok, to clarify: What I wish for is a bigger world with areas for the different factions. Much like Surface vs UD but on the surface already. What I wish for is conflicts between factions that are roleplayed out or fought out. This is what once happened a lot more and this is totally gone now. I strongly believe that this also inspires rp. Find your band of brothers and watch out for them damn elves or "we are now in the area where those pirates hang out" is just adding to it so much...
So, if we have all the untouchable powerbuilds and such a big level difference then all there is to do is to get a powerbuild to lvl30. Which is what it is now.
If we would have less of a level difference or let's just say if the strength of the different builds wouldn't be so very high it would make pvp a lot more interesting. If your chance to hit is more like 20% instead of just on a crit well, I guess it is more fun since you at least seem to have a chance. So if we find the middleground where monsters don't need nerfing through the roof to provide those powerbuilds some kind of challenge and a simple pure warrior is still able to do anything as well as the cleric still might find it useful to swing his mace around instead of just relying on his super high dc harm spell.... I don't know I think it would make everything a lot more fair.
I didn't do the math so I don't know at what level the total unbalance actually starts. And I do like that a mage can have access to lvl 9 spells. So for me it is still option 2 that just seems to have a greater chance to find that more balanced approach to the thing on the whole. Like for everyone, developer and powerplayer and roleplayer alike.

But speaking of making the experience of the server better. I had this idea. Since with server crashes and all the technical issues that can happen a permadeath seems like a really bad idea outside of DM oversight but how about areas where when you die you would lose a level to have something you can still live with even when a technical issue occured? It doesn't have to be high level areas only, no, not at all. There should simply be those level-loss-on-death areas around for pretty much all level ranges. They would be announced like we already have higher CR warnings on enter in some areas. Of course those would be the places where you have the best chances to find best loot for that level range.
Maybe as for the highest levels it could be a whole lot of those areas. The point is to spice it up a bit the other way round instead of pumping more hp into critters. Just an idea...

[Deragnost]

I am late. Of course. And I read only the first post - because 13 pages is really too much people.

Long story short, I prefere the "No Change" option: number 4. I speak selfishly of course, because Rose (Wintertal) is my first character that actually almost hit 30 in this server. Quite an achievement for me. Seeing all of the tough levelling being wiped feels a bit meh to me. Also it would be a real nerf for the bard (yes, I'm selfish, I feel no shame) because they'd lose all the wonderful Epic Feats.

A CHA build like Rose would make her basically useless in a fight.
That being said, I like the changes that have been done so far, but removing 10 or 15 levels to the CAP is not the answer to me.
A CHA bard is fun when you can do something even on damage. Staying behind and watch is no fun - especially if you don't have unbelievable powers like wizards / sorcerers / warlocks / shamans / druids / clerics / favoured souls.

Bards are a good support class, but they do need something to do something on their own. Otherwise, if you can't spend your time in a tavern and hope someone says "hey let's go hunting". That sucks. If I want to do something, and there's no one around, I want to be able to choose to do so.



In the whole, I believe I could live with proposal 3, IF the swings animations are made more real - more fluid, to hide a little better the time between one attack and the other, maybe with the chance to have special attacks to be chosen by us (Lunge, slash, etc) and make it more interactive and fun. I know there are similar animations scripted already under the "One Weapon" feat, or what's the name.

Otherwise, my vote goes to proposal 4.


I have been on servers with CAP level 20, and it never ended well. On papers, it sounds awesome! But on persistent world it's the death. In fact, they closed.



Edit: Oh, yeah, and if the professions could be used as weekly incomes that would be awesome too!

[JIŘÍ]

I have been on servers with CAP level 20, and it never ended well. On papers, it sounds awesome! But on persistent world it's the death. In fact, they closed.

If the server was completely designed around level 20, it flourishes. PoTM (Raveloft) has about 80 to 120 players online at peaks.

But the entire server was tailored to the level cap 20 from the beginning.


If we keep it as it is, we could still do some touches on it. Removing BaB increase post 21st could be good step, and also cracking down onto what bonuses magical items provide.

Starting with abilities, so you would need to use potion/scroll/spell (making them actually useful lol).

Removing all feats from items as well.

Myself, i am not fan of default metals in nwn2. I'd prefer old system where DR was based on enhancement. If crafting system would be included in future this could be reworked too with various bonuses on metals (weapons / armours) crafted by players.

[Freckles]

Bards are a good support class, but they do need something to do something on their own. Otherwise, if you can't spend your time in a tavern and hope someone says "hey let's go hunting". That sucks. If I want to do something, and there's no one around, I want to be able to choose to do so.

The critters would be reworked. You would most likely be able to do something on lvl20 or even on lvl15. And you have access to highest spelllevels on 20. I really don't think this makes you useless and totally dependend. Maybe it does the way the server works right now though.