Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

[zhazz]

The no-armor idea was raised, but I didn't like it because it limits character options. Someone might want to play an armored duelist character concept (and I absolutely think duelists should be able to use shields because rapier and buckler), so I don't like the idea of removing that as an option. Tweaking numbers only moderates power, it doesn't hurt diversity of character options.

The elaborate parry giving +5 deflection was good ( even though not pnp ) in many different ways and everyone was happy about it.

The idea that +5 deflection is good but +5 dodge isn't is so weird to me. One of them stacks, the other doesn't. And yeah yeah, dodge cap, whatever, we've already started work on moving things out of dodge AC (like armor optimization), and the cap itself is something that's on my docker for things I want to remove eventually.

As mentioned previously it freed up an item slot. In addition Deflection AC is not lost due to being flat-footed. Those two were the main draw of the old version, while the dodge cap was also more difficult to reach.

[renshouj]

As mentioned previously it freed up an item slot. In addition Deflection AC is not lost due to being flat-footed. Those two were the main draw of the old version, while the dodge cap was also more difficult to reach.

You mention in previous posts that the loss of 5 AC is the main problem, with AC calculations and all. Though there's a slot you now have to fill with a deflection item, compared to before ToT you still get +4 AC (Since the +5 stacks with +4). Would you rather it be reverted to pre-ToT and just be a +5 Deflection? Even though that literally makes the AC worse?

[DaloLorn]

As mentioned previously it freed up an item slot. In addition Deflection AC is not lost due to being flat-footed. Those two were the main draw of the old version, while the dodge cap was also more difficult to reach.

You mention in previous posts that the loss of 5 AC is the main problem, with AC calculations and all. Though there's a slot you now have to fill with a deflection item, compared to before ToT you still get +4 AC (Since the +5 stacks with +4). Would you rather it be reverted to pre-ToT and just be a +5 Deflection? Even though that literally makes the AC worse?

I know I wouldn't...

[zhazz]

As mentioned previously it freed up an item slot. In addition Deflection AC is not lost due to being flat-footed. Those two were the main draw of the old version, while the dodge cap was also more difficult to reach.

You mention in previous posts that the loss of 5 AC is the main problem, with AC calculations and all. Though there's a slot you now have to fill with a deflection item, compared to before ToT you still get +4 AC (Since the +5 stacks with +4). Would you rather it be reverted to pre-ToT and just be a +5 Deflection? Even though that literally makes the AC worse?

It does open up some interesting options. But no, it will further drop the AC, which is (in my opinion) the main draw of the PrC for unarmored/light armor builds. The PrC does open up some avenues of RP due to class skills, and the PrC theme/fantasy itself. However, in purely combat mechanics it is the AC that is the main draw.

[renshouj]

It does open up some interesting options. But no, it will further drop the AC, which is (in my opinion) the main draw of the PrC for unarmored/light armor builds. The PrC does open up some avenues of RP due to class skills, and the PrC theme/fantasy itself. However, in purely combat mechanics it is the AC that is the main draw.

The AC does drop if you revert it to pre-ToT Duelist. From +5 Dodge +4 Deflection (now), to simply +5 Deflection (how it was before). That's -4 AC. The only way for it not to drop, is if you're already 4 AC above the dodge cap.

[Rhifox]

The no-armor idea was raised, but I didn't like it because it limits character options. Someone might want to play an armored duelist character concept (and I absolutely think duelists should be able to use shields because rapier and buckler), so I don't like the idea of removing that as an option. Tweaking numbers only moderates power, it doesn't hurt diversity of character options.

The elaborate parry giving +5 deflection was good ( even though not pnp ) in many different ways and everyone was happy about it.

The idea that +5 deflection is good but +5 dodge isn't is so weird to me. One of them stacks, the other doesn't. And yeah yeah, dodge cap, whatever, we've already started work on moving things out of dodge AC (like armor optimization), and the cap itself is something that's on my docker for things I want to remove eventually.

IMO, making it work like Evasion and/or the TA class features (was that Agile Fighting, KD Immunity, or both? I can't remember) might be a decent compromise. Light armor and bucklers, disabled by anything else. Alternatively, there's a couple of other Pathfinder changes we could borrow without further changes to Elaborate Parry, though one of them would likely require Dae's help to pull off without inadvertently becoming a huge nerf due to the Dodge cap, and another would require Dae's help either way:

• Canny Defense: When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level as a dodge bonus to her Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus. (Emphasis mine.)
• Precise Strike: A duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, adding her duelist level to her damage roll. (Emphasis mine. Starts at level 1 - it's a slight drop in maximum damage at levels 5 or 10, but a noticeable boost to minimum/average damage on any level. This does mean you don't "get" anything at level 5 besides a point of Canny Defense and a point of Precise Strike, but that might even be okay enough not to count it as a dead level.)
  
  When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield. A duelist’s precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is also immune to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike. (... I mean, honestly, I'm fine with keeping it the way it is, considering the fact that more complicated swash/duelist builds, such as bladesinger variants, are liable to lock themselves out of Epic Precision... but it technically is a bug that NWN's Precise Strike works on undead without Epic Precision. And possibly even with it. )
• Crippling Critical: The level 10 capstone in PFK is beyond our ability to implement (barring more Dae magic), but maybe you could get a free Weakening and/or Wounding Critical feat whenever you're eligible for Precise Strike? Or Overwhelming Critical, or something? I forget what other feats in NWN2 key off critical hits... Alternatively, Epic Precision? Or... something? I dunno. Uncanny Dodge, so pure swash/duelists can innately get Wounding Critical without having to take a rogue or barbarian dip?
  
  (Note: Whatever we did instead of Crippling Critical, the idea is to key it to the Precise Strike prerequisites: Single piercing weapon, no shield.)

I'm not opposed to these adjustments.

[zhazz]

It does open up some interesting options. But no, it will further drop the AC, which is (in my opinion) the main draw of the PrC for unarmored/light armor builds. The PrC does open up some avenues of RP due to class skills, and the PrC theme/fantasy itself. However, in purely combat mechanics it is the AC that is the main draw.

The AC does drop if you revert it to pre-ToT Duelist. From +5 Dodge +4 Deflection (now), to simply +5 Deflection (how it was before). That's -4 AC. The only way for it not to drop, is if you're already 4 AC above the dodge cap.

Getting to 20 Dodge AC isn't all that easy tbh.
With Duelist 10 you get +5 AC with Fight Defensively on, plus another 2 for the mode itself. Add +5 from Combat Expertise, and +1 from the Dodge feat. Further add +4 from Dodge Boots. That nets you 17 Dodge AC. You can get +2 from Thief Acrobat, and another +1 from Haste/Improved Reaction. That does put you at the 20 AC dodge cap. But at the cost of -9 AB.

To get another +4 on top of that, however, you're starting to run out of options. Dwarven Defender is an option, but dwarves don't synergize well with the Int/Dex requirements of Duelist. Inspire Defense from a Bard can also do it, but with the hit to AB already you're wanting Inspire Courage instead.

That leaves Recitation for a +3 AC boost, which is a short duration buff.

Hitting the Dodge cap isn't as easy as it sounds. You can get close, yes. But hitting it, or even going beyond it, is quite difficult.

As a side note Canny Defense is untyped. Tumble AC counts as Armor AC (not dodge) according to the in-game armor tooltip.

[renshouj]

That wasn't my question/point? In fact, I think you're helping my point.

What I'm saying is that, compared to Pre-ToT duelist, current duelist gives MORE AC. +4 to be exact, in the form (and cost) of wearing a +4 deflection item. And exactly, its not easy to hit dodge cap. So my original question was, would you rather Duelist went back to Pre-ToT where the bonus was +5 Deflection, instead of current +5 Dodge? As dodge stacks with deflection and is MORE ac than it was before

[DaloLorn]

The no-armor idea was raised, but I didn't like it because it limits character options. Someone might want to play an armored duelist character concept (and I absolutely think duelists should be able to use shields because rapier and buckler), so I don't like the idea of removing that as an option. Tweaking numbers only moderates power, it doesn't hurt diversity of character options.



The idea that +5 deflection is good but +5 dodge isn't is so weird to me. One of them stacks, the other doesn't. And yeah yeah, dodge cap, whatever, we've already started work on moving things out of dodge AC (like armor optimization), and the cap itself is something that's on my docker for things I want to remove eventually.

IMO, making it work like Evasion and/or the TA class features (was that Agile Fighting, KD Immunity, or both? I can't remember) might be a decent compromise. Light armor and bucklers, disabled by anything else. Alternatively, there's a couple of other Pathfinder changes we could borrow without further changes to Elaborate Parry, though one of them would likely require Dae's help to pull off without inadvertently becoming a huge nerf due to the Dodge cap, and another would require Dae's help either way:

• Canny Defense: When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level as a dodge bonus to her Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus. (Emphasis mine.)
• Precise Strike: A duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, adding her duelist level to her damage roll. (Emphasis mine. Starts at level 1 - it's a slight drop in maximum damage at levels 5 or 10, but a noticeable boost to minimum/average damage on any level. This does mean you don't "get" anything at level 5 besides a point of Canny Defense and a point of Precise Strike, but that might even be okay enough not to count it as a dead level.)
  
  When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield. A duelist’s precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is also immune to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike. (... I mean, honestly, I'm fine with keeping it the way it is, considering the fact that more complicated swash/duelist builds, such as bladesinger variants, are liable to lock themselves out of Epic Precision... but it technically is a bug that NWN's Precise Strike works on undead without Epic Precision. And possibly even with it. )
• Crippling Critical: The level 10 capstone in PFK is beyond our ability to implement (barring more Dae magic), but maybe you could get a free Weakening and/or Wounding Critical feat whenever you're eligible for Precise Strike? Or Overwhelming Critical, or something? I forget what other feats in NWN2 key off critical hits... Alternatively, Epic Precision? Or... something? I dunno. Uncanny Dodge, so pure swash/duelists can innately get Wounding Critical without having to take a rogue or barbarian dip?
  
  (Note: Whatever we did instead of Crippling Critical, the idea is to key it to the Precise Strike prerequisites: Single piercing weapon, no shield.)

I'm not opposed to these adjustments.

One concern I have about my proposed Canny Defense change, though, is that it renders Bladesong Style utterly redundant on any character that has both PRCs. I'm not sure what to do about that yet, or whether anything needs to be done.

[zhazz]

That wasn't my question/point? In fact, I think you're helping my point.

What I'm saying is that, compared to Pre-ToT duelist, current duelist gives MORE AC. +4 to be exact, in the form (and cost) of wearing a +4 deflection item. And exactly, its not easy to hit dodge cap. So my original question was, would you rather Duelist went back to Pre-ToT where the bonus was +5 Deflection, instead of current +5 Dodge? As dodge stacks with deflection and is MORE ac than it was before

I already answered that I'd prefer to keep the current system, since the +5 Dodge with +4 Deflection is greater than the +5 Deflection of the old system.

[artemitavik]

So, I'm confused as to how this fixes the Elaborate Parry issue, as doesn't Canny Defense basically already do that but set the AC as "other" as to not muck with the dodge pool?

I'm not sure how this would address the issues with reducing the benefit of Elaborate Parry.

IMO, making it work like Evasion and/or the TA class features (was that Agile Fighting, KD Immunity, or both? I can't remember) might be a decent compromise. Light armor and bucklers, disabled by anything else. Alternatively, there's a couple of other Pathfinder changes we could borrow without further changes to Elaborate Parry, though one of them would likely require Dae's help to pull off without inadvertently becoming a huge nerf due to the Dodge cap, and another would require Dae's help either way:

• Canny Defense: When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level as a dodge bonus to her Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus. (Emphasis mine.)
• Precise Strike: A duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, adding her duelist level to her damage roll. (Emphasis mine. Starts at level 1 - it's a slight drop in maximum damage at levels 5 or 10, but a noticeable boost to minimum/average damage on any level. This does mean you don't "get" anything at level 5 besides a point of Canny Defense and a point of Precise Strike, but that might even be okay enough not to count it as a dead level.)
  
  When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield. A duelist’s precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is also immune to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike. (... I mean, honestly, I'm fine with keeping it the way it is, considering the fact that more complicated swash/duelist builds, such as bladesinger variants, are liable to lock themselves out of Epic Precision... but it technically is a bug that NWN's Precise Strike works on undead without Epic Precision. And possibly even with it. )
• Crippling Critical: The level 10 capstone in PFK is beyond our ability to implement (barring more Dae magic), but maybe you could get a free Weakening and/or Wounding Critical feat whenever you're eligible for Precise Strike? Or Overwhelming Critical, or something? I forget what other feats in NWN2 key off critical hits... Alternatively, Epic Precision? Or... something? I dunno. Uncanny Dodge, so pure swash/duelists can innately get Wounding Critical without having to take a rogue or barbarian dip?
  
  (Note: Whatever we did instead of Crippling Critical, the idea is to key it to the Precise Strike prerequisites: Single piercing weapon, no shield.)

I'm not opposed to these adjustments.

One concern I have about my proposed Canny Defense change, though, is that it renders Bladesong Style utterly redundant on any character that has both PRCs. I'm not sure what to do about that yet, or whether anything needs to be done.

[Rhifox]

So, I'm confused as to how this fixes the Elaborate Parry issue, as doesn't Canny Defense basically already do that but set the AC as "other" as to not muck with the dodge pool?

I'm not sure how this would address the issues with reducing the benefit of Elaborate Parry.

It's about allowing Canny Defense to work while wearing light armor.

[artemitavik]

But the thread isn't about Canny Defense, it's about the changes to Elaborate Parry.

Elaborate Parry's drop of AC is hurting the thematic, pure duelist far more than the Heavy Armored Duelist who took it mostly for the AC buff because the armor/shield make the build ineligible for the other class benefits.

I honestly think that the best solution to the Elaborate Parry is (after removing the nerf) allow it to function with Light Armor and Non-tower shields. That will allow "armored duelists" to gain the benefit when they have a build with enough dex to even bother to make it thematically a point into the dip (since you can have some solid light armor, like mithril chain or mithril bp, and not have a MASSIVE focus on your dex to max out the dex bonuses for those).

Leave Canny Defense completely alone, so that the armored folks are tripple dipping (armor/shield + canny + elaborate) and getting the over-rediculous AC that is the concern, but they'll have Armor/shield + elaborate for their dip, and the pure duelists will have Canny + elaborate.

Balance is maintained (such as it can be) the duelists get to keep their thematic cool abilities, the part-time duelists have a point to the dip and... we all go murder hoboing, stab baddies, and take their stuff!

[matelener]

Personally, I don't think Elaborate Parry is/was needed at all. Duelist was in a great spot, a simple build: 12 fighter / 5 swash / 3 sd / 10 duelist reached good numbers and was able to clear the entire PvE content easier than a lot of other fighters builds. Suddenly, there came an idea of bonkers +10 AC combat mode, that even at +5 is situationally extremely strong and just promotes unhealthy "extremes" (a new weird path of armored duelist was born). Now, there are talks of allowing light armor with duelist (which is free 4-6 AC) and at the end of the day, I'm wondering why should we mess with the mechanics of a class that used to work so well?

[Steve]

Giving boat loads of “free” Dodge AC to a PrC that doesn’t auto receive Uncanny Dodge as a class feat, makes this extra “free” AC situationally worse that that +5 always dependable Deflection AC the Duelist PrC once had.

+10 was way too much, and it showed immediately in how some players started using it in builds to min/max mechanical improvements outside the intention of benefitting the PrC itself.

If staff wants the AC to be Dodge, fine…but consider it being calculated by 1 pt AC per 6 pts Parry Skill, with a cap of 5.