Feint

[Flatted Fifth]

Suggestion updated to allow opposed roll that would give more options for PvP targets to resist move.

[DaloLorn]

Rhi's original remark still stands. There's too many hardcoded bits in exactly the places where the hardcoding would be most strongly felt.

[Flatted Fifth]

Rhi's original remark still stands. There's too many hardcoded bits in exactly the places where the hardcoding would be most strongly felt.

You can't disable the original feat and create a new one to replace it? Call the new one "Diversionary Tactic" or something?

[Rhifox]

Rhi's original remark still stands. There's too many hardcoded bits in exactly the places where the hardcoding would be most strongly felt.

You can't disable the original feat and create a new one to replace it? Call the new one "Diversionary Tactic" or something?

My original plan was this. It had to be scrapped because there are no means to make a mob flatfooted by code. This is why Feint changes were delayed. We have ways of adjusting it in the hardcode in the future but that will take time.

[Flatted Fifth]

Rhi's original remark still stands. There's too many hardcoded bits in exactly the places where the hardcoding would be most strongly felt.

You can't disable the original feat and create a new one to replace it? Call the new one "Diversionary Tactic" or something?

My original plan was this. It had to be scrapped because there are no means to make a mob flatfooted by code. This is why Feint changes were delayed. We have ways of adjusting it in the hardcode in the future but that will take time.

Yeah, but making the opponent flat-footed would be over-powered if it worked reliably, especially with no cooldown, because then everyone in the party gets a full flurry of sneak attacks against the flat-footed creature/person. Not just the person who performed the feint. Can you make the feat just grant one sneak attack to the one person performing the feint? Otherwise one feinting swash/ib in a party with 2 or 3 high lvl rogues could have the rogues sneak attack practically every attack. Possibly literally every attack, depending upon how long flat-footed lasts.

[Rhifox]

Can you make the feat just grant one sneak attack to the one person performing the feint?

Nope. Not possible to code sneak attacks either.

[Flatted Fifth]

Can you make the feat just grant one sneak attack to the one person performing the feint?

Nope. Not possible to code sneak attacks either.

Phooey. You'd have to simulate it by getting the number of sneak dice and adding 1d6 damage per, + 2 per rank of ib bleeding wound, but that wouldn't actually trigger the bleed, or the assassin's stun, or a rogue's crippling strike, or anything else triggered by a sneak. But honestly, if it gave a minor AB bonus for that hit or if Invis Blade granted the feat instead of requiring it I'd personally be fine with that.

I'm just really against the whole flat-footed thing because of aforementioned multi-rogue scenario.

ETA: If it's not possible to make the damage bonus for the one attack from New Feint NOT multiply on crit, maybe make the damage bonus be less than the actual sneak dice? Or just let that be the trade-off for sneak-triggered abilities not firing?

[Blackman D]

Yeah, but making the opponent flat-footed would be over-powered if it worked reliably, especially with no cooldown, because then everyone in the party gets a full flurry of sneak attacks against the flat-footed creature/person. Not just the person who performed the feint. Can you make the feat just grant one sneak attack to the one person performing the feint? Otherwise one feinting swash/ib in a party with 2 or 3 high lvl rogues could have the rogues sneak attack practically every attack. Possibly literally every attack, depending upon how long flat-footed lasts.

im confused... whats wrong with everyone getting sneaks because someone is flatfooted? thats literally the way that is suppose to work

with or without feint, getting jumped by a group of rogues means you probably gonna die by sneak attack

[Flatted Fifth]

Yeah, but making the opponent flat-footed would be over-powered if it worked reliably, especially with no cooldown, because then everyone in the party gets a full flurry of sneak attacks against the flat-footed creature/person. Not just the person who performed the feint. Can you make the feat just grant one sneak attack to the one person performing the feint? Otherwise one feinting swash/ib in a party with 2 or 3 high lvl rogues could have the rogues sneak attack practically every attack. Possibly literally every attack, depending upon how long flat-footed lasts.

im confused... whats wrong with everyone getting sneaks because someone is flatfooted? thats literally the way that is suppose to work

with or without feint, getting jumped by a group of rogues means you probably gonna die by sneak attack

Because with feint I can get 12 sneak attacks in a row. Quite certain I made it very clear that with Feint as-is, if you invest in the bluff gear, every attack in a combat can be a sneak attack, every round.

To clarify, Feint makes the target flat-footed for the entire round. Therefore all attacks for that round are sneak attacks, not just the 1st flurry like normal. My character has 12 attacks per round. So that's 12 sneak attacks instead of the normal 4 in my case. Not to mention that with no cooldown you could have one character loaded with bluff bonus equipment just spam the Feint quickslot to keep the opponent permanently flatfooted the whole combat while their rogue buddies have ALL of their attacks for the whole combat be sneak attacks without the interruption of breaking off combat, HiPS, attack and get sneak on first 1/3 attacks, rinse, repeat. Just an unending barrage of sneak attacks on every hit with no interruption. THAT is what's wrong with feint. If you don't have your character loaded down with bluff eq it's not useful enough when you really need it because the DC is so high. If you DO have your character loaded down with bluff eq, it's OP AF. It needs to go and be replaced with something that you can reliably use when you need it without it being OP... so something that does NOT make the target flat-footed.

[Blackman D]

yes i know how feint works and its rather clear it works as such

what im confused about is why you dont like it, its literally been around forever and only blind people complain about it for no reason since it -is- easily counted from a pvp point of view, pve wise its very useful on pretty much most all mobs that do not have high BAB, so its not like its some holy grail

but point of confusion is that there is literally no different between dropping a successful feint and spamming hips till something dies regardless of the situation, so i dont get what your actual complaint is?

its situationally OP and likewise reliable (which basically means its not OP )... so you want something that is more reliable without being more OP? and somehow without making one flatfooted which makes the entire point of using feint voided?

[Steve]

Feint user: d20 + total modifed Bluff skill
Target DC: d20 + Base Attack Bonus + total modified Spot skill
Other bonuses:
+4 for non-humanoid
+8 if unintelligent (1 or 2 intelligence)
or Impossible if 0 intelligence.

The DC for Feint is far from a sure success. When it does succeed, it’s great, and powerful, but DOES require and “all in” investment, which is the challenge. A challenge, because, investing all in on Feint in a Build plan and gear plan leaves glaring weaknesses, as the trade off. In both PvE and PvP.

I can get with the idea that flat footing via Feint shouldn’t be applicable then to any other attacker in that round/melee moment. But getting flat footed MEANS being distracted, and thus “put off guard…” which would result in the ability for any combatant to “sneak in” an attack. Or 12.

Personally, I’d be mad if Feinting was changed. It’s already a challenge, and losing the result of overcoming this challenge would ruin the fighting style for me.

[whatever123]

I don't personally mind as I don't play such characters, but it is seems that feint in NWN is not really within the spirit of DnD. Generally in DnD, effects that place a powerful debuff on a creature against their will, are opposed by saves, not skill checks. Given the implementation of feint in 3.5, the idea seems to be that the feinter performs somekind of combat manuever that lets them strike into a vulnerable spot (like pulling back a strike, and then quickly striking from the other side) - it makes sense that this is opposed by a skill check & BaB. But in NWN, it seems that feint completely disorients the target so that they cannot defend themselves at all for 6 seconds. That seems like something that should be opposed by a save (probably a will save, if physical contact is not required).

[Flatted Fifth]

But getting flat footed MEANS being distracted, and thus “put off guard…” which would result in the ability for any combatant to “sneak in” an attack. Or 12.

For an entire six seconds, though? It's not like the opponent was knocked down. Feint should grant one sneak attack (or simulation thereof), or possibly some kind of damage bonus that works if the user doesn't have sneak attack, or both, but not that target flat-footed for an entire six seconds.

Personally, I’d be mad if Feinting was changed. It’s already a challenge, and losing the result of overcoming this challenge would ruin the fighting style for me.

Welp, when duelist Elaborate Parry was given +1 ac per duelist level I thought "That's excessive. I'll only take enough duelist levels to get that feat so I can just barely squeeze in assassin 8, rogue 3, and swash 12. +7 AC is enough." Then it was changed to +1 per 2 levels, rounded DOWN, and suddenly my build was broken and I had to RCR and I'm still not happy with any build I could come up with to replace. If elaborate parry had simply been capped at 5, I'd have been ok with it. Stuff happens. I would suggest everyone who currently has Feint get a 100% rcr if it was changed.

[Steve]

But getting flat footed MEANS being distracted, and thus “put off guard…” which would result in the ability for any combatant to “sneak in” an attack. Or 12.

For an entire six seconds, though? It's not like the opponent was knocked down. Feint should grant one sneak attack (or simulation thereof), or possibly some kind of damage bonus that works if the user doesn't have sneak attack, or both, but not that target flat-footed for an entire six seconds.

Personally, I’d be mad if Feinting was changed. It’s already a challenge, and losing the result of overcoming this challenge would ruin the fighting style for me.

Welp, when duelist Elaborate Parry was given +1 ac per duelist level I thought "That's excessive. I'll only take enough duelist levels to get that feat so I can just barely squeeze in assassin 8, rogue 3, and swash 12. +7 AC is enough." Then it was changed to +1 per 2 levels, rounded DOWN, and suddenly my build was broken and I had to RCR and I'm still not happy with any build I could come up with to replace. If elaborate parry had simply been capped at 5, I'd have been ok with it. Stuff happens. I would suggest everyone who currently has Feint get a 100% rcr if it was changed.

The thing is that even though a mob/PC is flat footed for an entire round, it doesn’t mean all the attacks will land. Not all mobs/PCs have high DEX AC to lose.

If you are playing a dedicated Feinter, please try and go solo some bosses, and tell me how well you did.

[Flatted Fifth]

I don't personally mind as I don't play such characters, but it is seems that feint in NWN is not really within the spirit of DnD. Generally in DnD, effects that place a powerful debuff on a creature against their will, are opposed by saves, not skill checks. Given the implementation of feint in 3.5, the idea seems to be that the feinter performs somekind of combat manuever that lets them strike into a vulnerable spot (like pulling back a strike, and then quickly striking from the other side) - it makes sense that this is opposed by a skill check & BaB. But in NWN, it seems that feint completely disorients the target so that they cannot defend themselves at all for 6 seconds. That seems like something that should be opposed by a save (probably a will save, if physical contact is not required).

100% agree. That's why I think Feint should

A: Not make the target flat-footed. Just make them extra vulnerable to one attack from the one using Feint
B: Distraction be able to be resisted with a Will Save, Concentration roll, or Sense Motive roll, whichever is higher
And
C: If they don't resist the distraction, still able to take half damage with a Reflex save