An Idea For Faction vs Faction

[Tekill]

RP being the big draw to this game I thought we should work on our strengths instead of our weaknesses. I was trying to think of ways players can initiate their own RP on the sever with minimal aid from staff.
When I think about the fun times I have had playing NWN it was when being part of a group involved in a common objective be it, Group PVP, dm events, or even going on a RP focused simple hunt/patrol.

So in the past my first instinct to create Player initiated content, I always b-lined towards more PVP, then more cvc then just simply more conflict. The idea being a simple one. If we were our own antagonists, we would not even need dm events.
But the push back was always summed up as: think about all the drama it would cause and that the bad apples in the bunch would make it so we cant have nice things, etc, etc.

Which is true...us internet people suck.

Whistlers 'levelling' thread got me thinking about Player initiated RP again....and so I revisited my old belief about conflict RP and came up with what I think is a pretty neat idea. I think DM Ghost was working on a very detailed version of my idea - so credit to him. Also if anyone else thought of it before me- well I stole your idea- HAHA- sucker!

My idea then is if we made Conflict more of a structured "game" - with rules and common objectives.
The idea would be one faction (an antagonist) challenges another faction. There would need to be an RP reason- you would need to be creative. Then if the faction challenged accepts the challenge, then the competition would begin. You could make the competition about 4 months long...or shorter...or longer.
The idea here would be that the game exists OOC - to provide rules and safeguards so that - all the IC RP can be done without minimal drama. The objective is to create safe fun objective orientated RP that everyone feels comfortable with.
The DMs will still be needed but their jobs would be fairly easy. They can sit back and act like judges and referees. They would not need to work too hard on creating content - the players would be doing that!
You could even have 3rd party unbiased players step in as judges- does not even have to be DMs/staff.

The contest could consist of multiple aspects
1) First I think the antagonist/aggressor should get points for starting initiating the conflict. They get an advantage at the start. They would be creating the reason for the conflict and submitting it to the DM team.
2) recruiting- how many players can your side obtain as support- Each team needs to bolster their ranks - team with the highest population wins this event
3) Intelligence gathering (on the enemy mainly) - All spy reports get posted to DMs- The most successful spying, wins the event.
4) The DM Event Event - Each team gets one DM event where they stage an PVE attack on the other team, based on intelligence gathered. The team that succeeds or does the best job wins the event.
5) PVP battle royal - assuming both teams volunteer for this event there can be a staged pvp battle. It can be 3v3 5v5 or you can clear both benches.
6) Overall RP - how did each team act during mini skirmishes, which team shined the most in the conflict? Did one team cause unnecessary drama? Did one team rise above the Drama and maybe sacrificed an advantage for the sake of RP? That team wins the RP event
7) Points for creativity- going above and beyond to really make the conflict fun and exciting.

Once events have played out the judges pick a winner. The players of the winning team all get a really nice reward - like an item upgrade and the losers get a consolation prize (a chest, exp and gold). You can have a most valuable player award. And the guild that wins gets a chance to have a new outpost or new guild hall upgrade. Or a DM event or some such prize.

What do you all think?
Do you have any suggestions or ideas to add to this?

[Rain]

Nope. Anything that requires judges or DM influnce will immediately cause threads to pop up later calling favoritism. People already don’t trust DM’s to this day because of old and new accusations of staff favoritism this system would only make it worst.

Don’t get me wrong I like the idea but I feel this should be broken down to a simple system that basically goes…

New system: Guildhalls generate henchmen that can be controlled by guild leaders. Henchmen generate X amount over X days or are influenced by XP deposited into the guild hall for (Training). Guild leaders can use the control henchmen feat to control guild henchmen similar to controlling summons.

This will showcase guild strength and allow guilds to simulate Pokemon style RP battles against one another. If you lose henchmen then you lose guild strenght.

Now tie this with the servers kinda new Outpost system viewtopic.php?f=16&t=76720

Where your Henchmen cap is tethored to your amount of outpost + outpost level. This allows for risk vs reward when mobilizing against another group. If you win you get a higher cap of NPC’s if you lose your NPc cap lowers with it with the only stipulation being Guildhall attacks require approval, Outpost attacks do not but will notify Guildleaders of an attack. Being notified is determined by your #of henchmen + your highest henchmens level of skills points in spot or listen. (The minimum amount of time should atleast be 24 hours. Or of course the guilds can agree on an attack/defense date if they choose.)

[Steve]

I think that "faction vs faction" RP is a good idea, in principle.

First thing is, to have 2+ steady and established factions to work with. This is going to be hard enough as is. And, care needs to be made so it's not Evil Faction of 2-3 PCs and Good Faction of 27.5 PCs, skewing the conflict from the start.

Second thing is to have all players of these factions get "invited" to work on a "conflict situation," via an OOC (general contact message) PLUS an IC effort (declaration of intent against one side or the other). Once both factions/players "sign on," then role-play out the intent. The "intent" could be, for example: a threat to NOT trespass on an area; a challenge of ownership, some "battle for legitimacy;" collect X number of items before the other faction (maybe some DM assistance here). And, keep in mind that the conflict could totally be resolved through role-play, even some Roll Play with social skills or Lore skills, and not just a "whomever wields the biggest stick," though that can maybe be fun too, as in, let 2 champions fight for a "might is right" ending.

Third thing is to let any PCs/players/factions "back out" at any time. This could be for IC or OOC reasons, and the "result" of this would be a low level "surrender," but not a hard core "YOU LOSE LOSER!!!" result. Sometimes, the initial idea is great, but in practice, the experience goes pear shaped, and players need to have an out. And remember, the WHOLE PURPOSE is to generate good role-play AFTERWARDS, and build character(s).

Forth thing is to allow for a rematch, if said 1-3 things go very well. Not mandatory, but hey...you know...best two out of three?!?

[Tekill]

Nope.

Welp, I tried.

crying favourtism?
If we are not going to try new things due to internet people whining, then we are just giving up.

Its voluntary, so for whatever reason you dont want to get involved - so be it.

The suggestions above will either work directly with this contest idea or they can work indendantly. They sound good to me.

This idea gives players pupose, adds some fun, and encourages RP, all with minimal time sink for staff.

The status quo is the same as giving up to me. So I have offered a possible solution.

[Rain]

Nope.

Welp, I tried.

crying favourtism?
If we are not going to try new things due to internet people whining, then we are just giving up.

Its voluntary, so for whatever reason you dont want to get involved - so be it.

The suggestions above will either work directly with this contest idea or they can work indendantly. They sound good to me.

This idea gives players pupose, adds some fun, and encourages RP, all with minimal time sink for staff.

The status quo is the same as giving up to me. So I have offered a possible solution.

Again, don’t get the wrong idea. I like your suggestion and I applaud you for making this post because I do think we need more suggestions and opinions on this matter. My one and only main cause for concern is that if you make a system that requires (Judges) to claim a winner, people will call the system rigged. Exspecially in this community that is VERY cliquey. I would find a way where winners can be determined by effort weather that be through RP, PVP, PVE, PVX, Time investment, Dice rolling, Tic Tac Toe, Rock paper shotgun… idk ANYTHING else but a judge system or DM railroading.

[selhan]

Wot is this 2023 nonsense o.o!

The winners are the faction with more numbers!

The losers are the faction that said they had enough!

Do you yield?!!!!

"NEVAH!!!"

"BRRRAVVVVEEEHHEEAARRRTTT!"


But enough troll on the serious note...

Faction on Faction conflict SHOULD be player based led! The only time a DM get involved is to make rulings of WHATS Meta and whats against the rules! And maybe spawn a catapult or something lol.

Do I have to Roll a Paladin or a evil mage?

"Attack attack attack! CHARGE!!!! FOR HONOR AND GLORY!"

"DEATH IS COMING FOR YOU! FEEEL MY WRATH!"

"KABOOM KABOOM AND BOOM BOOM!"

[Tekill]

Wot is this 2023 nonsense o.o!
Faction on Faction conflict SHOULD be player based led!

Yes it SHOULD- but it is NOT.
There are no winners or losers allowed on this server. We all get the participation award instead because above all else we have to consider the losers hurt butt above everything else.

To protect the feelings of the gentle flowers among us, I suggested we create fun way for factions to fight each other to minimize the drama that internet people bring to this game when they try to create conflict.

All the players on this server are not that mistrustful over the DM's. But a lot of players egos and pride refuses to allow them to lose. So the first thing they do is blame the judges.

We are human- favoritism happens. We can take all precautions to avoid prejudice/bias/favoritism and for those still crying foul - I say suck it up buttercup!

How else will followers of Shar bring darkness?
How else will pirates get their booty?
How will one merchant guild create a hostile corporate take over of another merchants territory?
How else will paladins and necromancers finally prove who is mightier?

The list should be endless...yet is simply does not even exist.

[blazerules]

Third thing is to let any PCs/players/factions "back out" at any time.

This reminds me of diplomatic plays from Victoria 3 that imho could work well for faction v faction stuff. The tl;dr is

3 phases
Opening Moves
Diplomatic maneuvering
Countdown to war

During opening moves both sides make their demands. Once the opening moves phase is complete it moves to diplomatic maneuvering.

During diplomatic maneuvering nations with interest in the region can pick a side. For example they can lean towards a side or declare neutrality. Leaning doesn't mean they join the conflict just that they will join if offered something.

Of course this means both sides start offering interested parties stuff. Often territories, treaty ports, etc etc.

During diplomatic maneuvering either side can back down. The defending side backing down enforces demands. Its basically surrender without war. As war is costly.

Count down to war basically locks in all the sides and is a countdown till the war starts

Honestly something like this would work really well for an RP server without too much modification of the concept.

[selhan]

Wot is this 2023 nonsense o.o!
Faction on Faction conflict SHOULD be player based led!

How else will followers of Shar bring darkness?
How else will pirates get their booty?
How will one merchant guild create a hostile corporate take over of another merchants territory?
How else will paladins and necromancers finally prove who is mightier?

The list should be endless...yet is simply does not even exist.

Pirates get booty?! SIGN ME UP!

[Dragonslayer]

All the players on this server are not that mistrustful over the DM's. But a lot of players egos and pride refuses to allow them to lose. So the first thing they do is blame the judges.

Woof, that's a truth bomb.

[Steve]

There is a big difference between losing a battle and losing the war.

There is also a big difference between being outsmarted and having your PC slain, dismembered, gutted and set on fire in front of the FAI (true story that happened to one of my Characters!).

To tag onto the “I hate leveling meme,” no player in their right mind is going to spend a year leveling to 30 then subject said Character to some conflict that ends in losing the Characters life. That BGTSCC even still allows PvP to end up Fugueing a PC, is just a vehicle for drama.

Pretty much, if conflict doesn’t look like fun from the outset, just leave big outs, cause otherwise, someone is going to take it personal.

[blazerules]

Pretty much, if conflict doesn’t look like fun from the outset, just leave big outs, cause otherwise, someone is going to take it personal.

Imho a Victoria 3esque like system might be ideal for this.

For example being able to make stronger/larger demands in the Opening Moves stage (which has limited moves anyways) but it will increase the conflict to Risk of Death for your faction and your faction alone (and anyone joining your side in the conflict).

Of course the other side can do much the same, or not.

But that would add optional risk reward and be completely opt in.

[Rain]

Wot is this 2023 nonsense o.o!
Faction on Faction conflict SHOULD be player based led!

Yes it SHOULD- but it is NOT.
There are no winners or losers allowed on this server. We all get the participation award instead because above all else we have to consider the losers hurt butt above everything else.

To protect the feelings of the gentle flowers among us, I suggested we create fun way for factions to fight each other to minimize the drama that internet people bring to this game when they try to create conflict.

All the players on this server are not that mistrustful over the DM's. But a lot of players egos and pride refuses to allow them to lose. So the first thing they do is blame the judges.

We are human- favoritism happens. We can take all precautions to avoid prejudice/bias/favoritism and for those still crying foul - I say suck it up buttercup!

How else will followers of Shar bring darkness?
How else will pirates get their booty?
How will one merchant guild create a hostile corporate take over of another merchants territory?
How else will paladins and necromancers finally prove who is mightier?

The list should be endless...yet is simply does not even exist.

Im just going to rebuttal with this… I think you would find alot more people pissed off about losing (even with consultation prizes) if their lose was resulted by a judge rather then the effort they put in. If you played everything perfectly and sunk hours of your time into this only to have the other team win who worked on the FvF project for a quarter of the time your group did… You would be pissed. You can say whatever you want about that but there is a reason winners in a large portion of competition cases are determined by skill and effort not judges.

And your right. Not everyone distrust the DM’s. Some do due to history or reoccurring themes of their decisions that negatively effect certain groups.
But as ive said on the leveling thread as well. Do you really wish for raiding to turn into a corporate waiting game of DM’s processing every move for weeks? Or have it be an actual heated moment of back and forth where the result can be determined by any false move or heroic leap. FvF to me should be an ever changing CONSTANTLY shifting battle field. Your not going to get that with judges making decisions or DM’s artificially swaying battles.

Your going to get that through effort.

[selhan]

If im in a faction with a handful of nukers and tanks and I got a good reason to attack another faction, I aint asking no DM for permission believe that lol. And because of rules I have to play bunny and send that faction a OOC "Hi your ppl did yada yada yada, so we gonna be targeting you folks do we have your consent to pvp? Yes? Okay let the games begin. If No Okay we will be attacking around pvp."

If the other faction wants to put up a fight please do and give me a good game. If not I taking your outposts, your pride, your banners and any deeds or land under their name and build a brothel upon its foundation. Thee only thing I need a DM to let me know is that I did it all within the server rules and ensure I did not meta in my efforts. And distribute any npcs in my arsenals to the fight efforts. Oh and have the dev build that brothel.

I understand the ideal proposal of the author of this thread, and hey I as a member of this games community , acknowledge and is thankful for your efforts in trying to promote some fun on this server. And in my own opinion, and remembering how this server was over a decade ago, I do not fancy 90% of the server rules that came outta god knows where. But I enjoy the game and simply abide by them most times I think... I got plenty other games to get my pvp thrills. You win some you lose some. If a teams butt hurt about losing or I lost trust me ..Im one that would not GAF. Faction on Faction use to be a common thing since it IS one aspect of the game. And again I do appreciate others trying to promote activity on this server. Hells my whole game play now a days is simply dedicated to help promote rp on this server to who I can or can find on my bloody god forsaken time zone , cause really I find nothing else enjoyable much any more. Looting, grinding leveling meh after awhile it makes me sick to my gut. I dont do it unless I have too.

And even with all thats being said, I do want to stress the lack of active players on this server. Careful with what you folks ask for cause we really dont want to reduce player base, cause its kobolds arse dookie already.

[Tekill]

I still think there should be a winner and a loser.
But the winning/losing will be more about how the RP plays out and not so much about winning a game. Im sure some folk get into it for the competition and the game side of it but for me its is about how the contest plays out IC that matters.

So the pirates start attacking a Merchant house and stealing their merchandise. The contest begins. There is diplomacy, the intrigue, any possible dm events, possible pvp plays out, solid RP is performed, etc.. Four month later we look back at the carnage..er..RP and we see that both sides did an amazing job.
Maybe the merchants rise up and quash the pirates - burning Roaring Shore and all its filth to ashes.
Maybe the pirates are unable to be stopped and become pirate kings, eventually overthrowing the dukes of Baldur's Gate....the Pirate King(s) of Baldurs Gate!
Maybe its a tie?
The event is over but neither side really comes out ahead....they will have to continue RPing the dispute on their own. With the precedence already set on the behavior they can continue as such, for their own amusement/enjoyment.

There will likely be a winner and a loser- One team does better in a DM event. One team successfully infiltrates gets intel on the other team. My Dragon Druid/warlock/barbarian slaughters everyone on the field of battle. Maybe one team half asses it in group RP...or didn't submit reports. Maybe one team built up their guild very well and the other lost members due to RL....poop happens. Winners and losers...circle of life...

But the issue Rain addresses is valid. Both bust their asses to win but even though there is a clear winner, the loser deserves more than a kick in the arse.
So I guess aside from a tie, how would you make it so the people who deserves a reward gets one even if they did not win the contest?