Reconsider the stealth icon: ugly, buggy, and metagamey

[Rhifox]

That's likely to cause some issues with metagaming at some point.

Isn't really metagaming since the only reason you can see them is because you successfully rolled Spot or Listen, so your character absolutely does see the character.

[RoseFrost]

That's likely to cause some issues with metagaming at some point.

Isn't really metagaming since the only reason you can see them is because you successfully rolled Spot or Listen, so your character absolutely does see the character.

Not to risk rehashing this whole argument again, but you've kind of made Fire Wolf's point here. You can see them because you successfully rolled Spot/Listen. See vs. Not see is a different question than "know they were stealthing" vs. not.

For example let's say IRL you come across a guy lying in a field of grass, and you see him. The visibility question is clear. But do you also immediately know that he was intending to hide (i.e. stealthing)? Maybe he's just taking a nap, and happened to be hard to see at first. What would you actually be seeing that would let you tell the difference? I would argue nothing. There wouldn't be a visual difference, and thus the icon is metagaming by providing more information to characters than they actually could know.

It's hard to see the visibility of this icon as some kind of massive issue tbh. Considering that every other server out there gets by without one, and BG got by without for the first (10/12/?) years. Not actually sure when this was implemented. I think aesthetics are a valid thing to consider in the trade-off of whether or not the thing is worth it. I am obviously biased slightly here, as someone who ends up looking at this thing all the time.

[Louvaine]

The problem is that people don't role-play hiding. You'll see them just standing there, doing nothing. The icon prevents that - so it should be easily seen to those who have engaged with the stealth system and passed the check.

In all honesty, this icon and spiderksin-like effect works. It does the job it's set out to do. Why fix it, if it ain't broken? But I digress. If we need to update the icon, let's make sure we keep it visible - that's the point of the icon and the VFX effect.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

the point of the icon and the VFX effect.

The visual effect (spiderskin) will run counter to what changes Disguise will offer. Spotting someone doesn't narratively turn them white either.

[selhan]

That appraise is so meta! Get rid of that too! Why people cant simply go with what their pc sees is beyond me!

Mechanical considerations. If you looked upon someone transmuted with trueseeing, the mechanics would have to offer you a visual representation of whom they really are, passively even.

Server rules say its meta so eeeets meta nod nod

[Fire Wolf]

I think what I added may have been misunderstood.

I think there should be an icon to indicate that you succeeded in spot.

What I said about metagaming is only in the case of being in utter pitch blackness with no ability to see through it, where you icly would not be able to even attempt to spot the other character even if mechanically you have succeeded in the roll.

[BloodRiot]

the way I see it, we have to consider that if the game's spot rolls says your PC sees the other, then it's spotted. What the game visually conveys to the PLAYER has no bearing here. Because otherwise we'd need to start applying blinded debuffs to the players that can't otherwise see in pitch darkness without a vision mode or other light source. If you can't see it because it's pitch black regardless what spot rolls tells you, then you sure as hell can't attack it (easily) either.

[DaloLorn]

If you can't see it because it's pitch black regardless what spot rolls tells you, then you sure as hell can't attack it (easily) either.

Also, if you were blinded, you wouldn't actually be able to roll Spot against them.

[Deragnost]

I say, "stop being sneaky and be barbarian instead!"

In all seriousness, I believe the icon works perfectly because it's visible only if you successfully roll Spot / Listen, otherwise no one would see it. It's helpful especially for spotters to understand who's hiding or who's under invisibility or who's with spiderskin or who's half-bugged.

Server rules say its meta so eeeets meta nod nod

It should be meta for those changing their names only - especially if they hide their faces with a full helmet.
It shouldn't be meta though if you're using True Seeing vs polymorphed creature. Without getting the name, of course, unless you already know them and if they're wearing helmets or whatsoever. It does require a lot of fairplay on both parts.


EDIT: if it can be made such that it's visible only for spotters (and not on the sneaker's screen right on their faces) it could be awesome!

[Green Monster]

IRL there is a visual difference between someone just lying in the tall grass in relaxation mode and someone actively trying to flatten themselves out as much as possible to utilize cover, just like in real life there is a visible difference between someone walking casually down the street and someone walking softly on the balls of their feet and sticking to shadows. The icon lets us know which is happening and I think it's brilliant.

If I get caught sneaking and someone calls me on it then I will roll bluff.

"Me? Sneaking? No, no, listen, it's late, people are trying to sleep, I just don't want to wake anyone. What's in this bag? Oh, those are my grandmother's jewels. She wanted me to take them to the jeweler to get cleaned in the morning on my way to my honest job. I'm just leaving her house now. I was going out through the window because she fell asleep, the poor dear, and her door squeaks something awful."

[RoseFrost]

Don't know if this was intentional or not, but the ghost/covered in flour effect has returned for stealth with the most recent update.

[BloodRiot]

The VFX file currently in the hak does not match the latest version of the repository. Seems there was some unintentional reverting of the Hak. Was reported to the higher ups for future updates and should be fixed.

In other news. I have also removed the similar tint effect from spiderskin so that one too should see less borking of capes and boots. Remainder of the effect was left unchanged.

[Winterborne]

I don't really have an opinion about the icon. It's fine and doesn't bug me but that's subjective.

However, is it possible for the icon to not show for the stealthed PC? It sounds like seeing it on yourself seems to be the main rub here.

I think it being clearly visible in pitch black is fine. My character knows where you are. I shouldn't then need to also roll an irl perception check to find you on my screen. Not that this is an issue for me with Darkvision.

[DaloLorn]

However, is it possible for the icon to not show for the stealthed PC? It sounds like seeing it on yourself seems to be the main rub here.

Afraid not.

[RoseFrost]

The VFX file currently in the hak does not match the latest version of the repository. Seems there was some unintentional reverting of the Hak. Was reported to the higher ups for future updates and should be fixed.

In other news. I have also removed the similar tint effect from spiderskin so that one too should see less borking of capes and boots. Remainder of the effect was left unchanged.

Perhaps there is a better place to document this issue, but it continues to persist after the latest patch. Going into stealth bleaches all color from clothing, leaving one white as a ghost.