Update on Open question to team evil/morally questionable

[Deathgrowl]

What I hear you say, Deathgrowl, is that an attempt to organise Soubar is a lost cause and while the journey to ruin can be enjoyable experience (if you can have fun losing), ultimately the vision of Soubar being not an overlooked village not worth anyone's trouble, but a true hub for evil characters of surface is not one that can be achieved in current setting. The only possibilities are to live under the heel of goodly factions, to be defeated or to bail out to other location. Is my understanding correct?

Not entirely what I'm saying, but I suppose it's close enough to do. At least that is my personal reading of it.

There are many - really quite many - other opportunities for growing evil on the server. The biggest of them are the Zhentarim, Amn and Sshamath*. And like Valleriani says, there are still ways for Soubar to evolve. But at least to my mind, we shouldn't let OOC convenience of shops and nearby loot places dictate what makes sense for a location IC. Soubar deserves to be recognised for what it is: A tent town of transients and outlaws, barely any true inhabitants, and none of which want any laws to govern their lives. Soubar and Roaringshore are surprisingly similar in this regard. Pirates are, after all, just seafaring outlaws. Soubar does have more outright monsters, though.

* Though in the case of Sshamath, there's little to suggest the Conclave (besides the Lolthite houses) are interested in expansion. Where would they go? Surface? Unlikely, they get all they need from their association with the Zhentarim. They're also not religiously motivated to raid the surface, like the lolthite and vhaerunite cities. I'm actually a bit confused as to why they even have the outposts they have. Why bother?

It's been done before. Doron Amar and En Dharasha Everae aren't lore settlements, and to my knowledge they were created by player initiative. The tricky question is, can that still happen? I don't think the DMs can answer that except in the broadest of senses, since it does require a pretty hefty player initiative...

Or Kraak Helzak for that matter. I don't see why, with solid work put in, something like this wouldn't be possible again. It has to make sense geographically though. I really can't stress that enough. Take a look the Faerûn map and notice where Soubar actually is. Notice what's around it. Where it's roads lead.

[Saharez]

It has to make sense geographically though. I really can't stress that enough. Take a look the Faerûn map and notice where Soubar actually is. Notice what's around it. Where it's roads lead.

Past a fort controlled by orcs which Triel would be hard pressed to simply march an army past.

On the other side we've got a ruined bridge with poisoned water, which would also be complicated to march an army past.


Strategically Soubar is reasonably well insulated from the good factions right now, not that it prevents in character groups of Paladins and friends showing up whenever it suits them to demand things of the players that spend their time in Soubar.


Marching a military force to Soubar from either Baldurs Gate or Triel, would take about 2-3 weeks each way based on logistical options supported by the generally available technology of the setting.

It's a significant undertaking, one that would require meticulous planning and significant investments.

It seems farfetched such an endeavour would happen without significant provocation.

[Louvaine]

I feel like perhaps Soubar and the desire such a large player base has had over many years are a topic of different discussion. Before I vanish again in hopes of letting the newer faces speak their mind I'll just say that clearly we're not interested in Sshamath or Darkhold. Those options were present for a while. I think that players, especially those who play outcasts (coincidentally, Soubar accepts outcasts) want to have a place they helped build that they can call home.

[Deathgrowl]

I think that players, especially those who play outcasts (coincidentally, Soubar accepts outcasts) want to have a place they helped build that they can call home.

That seems completely reasonable to me. Well, evil outcasts anyways. Or evil-leaning outcasts.

[TheBorderPrince]

Or Kraak Helzak for that matter. I don't see why, with solid work put in, something like this wouldn't be possible again. It has to make sense geographically though. I really can't stress that enough. Take a look the Faerûn map and notice where Soubar actually is. Notice what's around it. Where it's roads lead.

And all those places are literally hundreds of miles away. This is how Western Heartlands are even described in the lore, btw. A "miles of miles" of mostly uninhabited and lawless wilderlands, sparsely specked by insular, independent towns, villages and homesteads. With occasional bubbles of civilization surrounding major city-states like Gate or Elturel.
And of course, these city-states have power and can project it, but as Saharez pointed out, military campaigns require resources and logistical organisation. Let's not pretend that Elturel or whoever else needs to throw a ton of gold and divert a large portion of their forces from usual duties by sending them a hundred miles forth into untamed wilds just because they felt threatened by a backwater caravan town replacing few of the tents there with permanent builldings. Or worshipping gods they don't like. Or being partial to trafficking some relatively minor volumes of illicit goods, or whatever kind of "growth" Soubar can sensibly have. I mean, I don't mean they can't but they also don't have to. Eventually, it is in DM team discretion how to handle it, but lore, at least as I see it doesn't seem to imply any kind of inevitability, instead it feels much more flexible than that.

[Steve]

Is the desire then, or a main desire, by players of Evil-aligned PCs, to have a haven/area map/enclave/etc that is just by Evils, for Evils, and only Evils?

That whole Events and player-to-player and DM-to-player campaigns can be created, evolve and be resolved?

Without interest/influence/annoyance of any good-aligned PCs and/or factions/guilds?

[Rinzler]

While there has been a healthy increase of evil players, it still seems as if there's an unwritten rule where evil isn't permitted to exist, much less make a meaningful impact, outside of Soubar (or the +/- 3 evil-approved areas surrounding it). I don't think that's intentional by any means, but it's certainly a perception I've heard reiterated by many players and it feels real. An all too often response I hear is:

"You really have to respect the effort they put in, but sometimes it just doesn't work out."

It's what people said after Batibat's Undercity plot, and then it's what was stated after the Zhent war, and then again most recently after the Auril war. It does make one wonder how much effort is enough to achieve an objective victory / meaningful success.

Maybe it's what comes with the territory of playing an evil character, but generally what happens is everyone and their grandmother with a good alignment bands together and simply annihilates any evil initiative that takes place outside of the "permitted evil zone" (AKA Soubar).

Yes, evil has "victories" but they're generally self-contained and via a personal/guild DM plot. That said, I can't think of one example where an evil player's initiative prevailed over its good player's counterpart during my time here.

[Louvaine]

Is the desire then, or a main desire, by players of Evil-aligned PCs, to have a haven/area map/enclave/etc that is just by Evils, for Evils, and only Evils?

That whole Events and player-to-player and DM-to-player campaigns can be created, evolve and be resolved?

Without interest/influence/annoyance of any good-aligned PCs and/or factions/guilds?

I think that players of evil-aligned characters are actually way more tolerant than that. I'll have you know that we have drop ins from random paladins and even Fenwick came to ask around in Soubar. We welcome everyone. Maybe because we know how it feels like to be rejected.

But yes, I think many of us from team evil want a place to role-play something else than constant worry over being crushed by team good.

Then again, I'm not speaking for anyone by myself, I just share my observations.

[AsuraKing]

Yes, evil has "victories" but they're generally self-contained and via a personal/guild DM plot. That said, I can't think of one example where an evil player's initiative prevailed over its good player's counterpart during my time here.

Gunna preface this by saying I havent been on the evil side of things for a good while now (not counting my fairly new Duergar).

However I'm going to be entirely honest and state that this is THE major reason I figured out a way of turning Barry away from evil IC. In all my years here, I cannot tell you of a single major victory over good that I experienced while on the evil side and I simply got tired of trying. Sure we had a few very minor victories here or there, but never anything that actually felt impactful to the setting/server.

[DaloLorn]

I don't know why everyone's attributing Deathgrowl's posts to me all of a sudden.

[metaquad4]

Yes, evil has "victories" but they're generally self-contained and via a personal/guild DM plot. That said, I can't think of one example where an evil player's initiative prevailed over its good player's counterpart during my time here.

Gunna preface this by saying I havent been on the evil side of things for a good while now (not counting my fairly new Duergar).

However I'm going to be entirely honest and state that this is THE major reason I figured out a way of turning Barry away from evil IC. In all my years here, I cannot tell you of a single major victory over good that I experienced while on the evil side and I simply got tired of trying. Sure we had a few very minor victories here or there, but never anything that actually felt impactful to the setting/server.

I played on team good for a while, and I was bored out of my mind with that too. Knowing that, at the end of the day, you'll win tastes the exact same as the opposite to me.

On one hand, you know you'll always win.
On the other hand, you know you'll always lose.

Maybe this is just the environment that most people want to cultivate and maybe therefore the server just isn't for me? IDK

I almost wish that someone (on staff) would just come out and (officially) say "we are actively looking to improve player agency" or "this is how we want the server to be". Then I'd know for sure what to do instead of just teetering on the edge for years and years hoping "this playthrough it'll be different".

I suppose if actions speak louder than words, then "this is how we want the server to be" has been spoken loud and clear for years?

[Steve]

But yes, I think many of us from team evil want a place to role-play something else than constant worry over being crushed by team good.

I don’t know if you know this, but this was a great deal part of the whole “lawless north” Server expansion that happened o so many years ago.

That because it was lawless—meaning the Dukes and the Flaming Fist couldn’t just amass and crush you—there was to be an “open playing field” for Players with their PCs to initiate whatever, and vie for rights, home, power…or just breed chaos!

As things have gone through, there are always more goodly PCs and factions than Evil ones, and thus, always unbalanced. I know that by Server stats there exists equally spread alignments among the total PC population, but in terms of IG activity, it’s easy to see the reality.

Literally, it would take a shift to more-evil-than-goods-active PCs to construct something that would be lasting or whatever.

But the pendulum rarely or never has swayed that way.

Anyway, I’m all in for support of this!

[Tantive]

The multiple factions of Team evil have been competent enough to stand in each others way to their own designs.

[Rinzler]

The multiple factions of Team evil have been competent enough to stand in each others way to their own designs.

Perhaps that’s because trying anything that involves good players as an adversary has a predetermined outcome. At least with evil vs. evil the end result is ambiguous.

But yes, I think many of us from team evil want a place to role-play something else than constant worry over being crushed by team good.

I don’t know if you know this, but this was a great deal part of the whole “lawless north” Server expansion that happened o so many years ago.

That because it was lawless—meaning the Dukes and the Flaming Fist couldn’t just amass and crush you—there was to be an “open playing field” for Players with their PCs to initiate whatever, and vie for rights, home, power…or just breed chaos!

The lawless north obviously didn’t work, as there’s a habit of good aligned players and factions marching north to interrupt evil oriented plots and events to make it about themselves. Imagine if the roles were reversed and evil players marched south to interrupt a “good” event - in no event would that be tolerated and would be likely considered griefing.

[Deathgrowl]

predetermined outcome.

Could you clarify and qualify this, please?