Update on Open question to team evil/morally questionable

[DaloLorn]

Truth be told, I think Soubar is a lousy place for an evil hub, precisely because of Mag. On the one hand, her plot armor ensures that the paladins will never raze the place to the ground (despite Lin's fears, and those of many of the people she's discussed it with). On the other hand, her... proactive apathy, for lack of a less oxymoronic description, means that evil factions can only survive there, but they cannot grow it into a place of any real importance.

Compare and contrast this with Uruk Lurra, Darkhold, or Sshamath: Each of these settlements' ruling powers obviously wants to remain in charge. If he knows what's good for him, Grimnail won't let Obahzk become more respected in the village than he is... but that doesn't mean he's not happy to let Obahzk form a warband to spearhead orcish expansion into the region (as occurred with Fort Prominence). Whoever the hell leads the Zhents these days won't knowingly let Tarina gain the power to supplant them, but they will otherwise gladly encourage her to expand Darkhold's sphere of influence and weaken the Lords' Alliance. The Conclave is perfectly happy to have Selmiyeritar turn Undrek Naudal into a vassal city, as long as it stays a vassal. Mag has no such ambitions, and the impression I've gathered from listening to accounts of her interventions is that she wants Soubar to remain an insignificant puddle of filth near Boareskyr.

Thinking about it like this... I feel like establishing a foothold in Corm Orp or Winding Water, working with the orcs to expand Fort Prominence, or reclaiming the ruined village northwest of Boareskyr, might be a better use of the Crimson Watch's time. It's a shame they've already invested so much effort into Soubar, and that nobody on my roster (active or otherwise) would be both qualified and willing to translate this analysis into IC recommendations...

[Steve]

Tell you what steve. I invite you over to this side of the "morality curtain" Bring a new pc over. Feel free to pratice all that wishy washy rule book and guidelines of good practices. Extra points if you make a UD side evil pc. If you haven't gave up in a year, you can then show me how it's done. Until then I'm not gonna read that war and peace level of a post that presumes to tell me how to do things I have mostly already been doing (not lately, because i'm past that... but did at one point)

I’m assuming you assume I’ve never put in the work. That’s cool. I’ve been around for a long time with many different efforts, and I don’t blame you for not having any desire to know more.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Soubar is perfectly fine if understood as a springboard toward something better. The server is equipped to create miniature villages (DA, EDE, NewTriel) from player initiative and has done so in the past. It isn't immediately evident to newer community members that they could do exactly that with sufficient investment from both OOC and IC.

[Louvaine]

Can we stick to the topic, please?

[Aspect of Sorrow]

The player housing initiative was a good addition to the server, Guild Halls in my opinion could have another look taken at them, assisting with the barrier to entry that allow fledgling organizations begin to take shape on the server more easily, especially in preparation for settlement opportunities that will could allow for less DM oversight / overhead. A proposal agreed upon then submitted into the wiki from people who are invested in what that might look like. Multiple of these kinds of organizations forming their own soverignty pseudo alliance, and take over the regions of Delve Stain that're assigned to them.

Ideally guilds need more incentivization to exist than dust collecting adventuring groups that log on for loot runs, development would have to flesh that out.

[DaloLorn]

Soubar is perfectly fine if understood as a springboard toward something better. The server is equipped to create miniature villages (DA, EDE, NewTriel) from player initiative and has done so in the past. It isn't immediately evident to newer community members that they could do exactly that with sufficient investment from both OOC and IC.

Honestly, it's not exactly obvious to people who do know it's been done before, either. I'm ideally positioned to see why that's not the case (my characters have had a hand in the creation of the current iterations of literally every settlement in the Upperdark ), but it's very easy to get the impression that the server world has ossified in the years since the Dragonspear war (at the very latest), and that efforts to form a group capable of leaving a lasting legacy are doomed to failure.

A false impression? Perhaps. And yet... I do feel like it's harder, at least, to make any tangible progress. Or perhaps it's just that all the big movers have... heh, moved on, if you'll pardon the pun, leaving a population that generally has no idea how to make things happen. (Or if they do, they can no longer bring themselves to do it.)

Can we stick to the topic, please?

The topic's a bit open-ended. Given that most evil players I know of nowadays are into empire building (or have at least joined another evil player's empire-building efforts), I'm not surprised that it's swung in this direction.

What has changed? Well... less personal conflict, more assembling powerbases, in my experience. But that's to be expected when you go from a vindictive, petty murderer to an unorthodox drow matron, and other people's experiences may vary.

The player housing initiative was a good addition to the server, Guild Halls in my opinion could have another look taken at them, assisting with the barrier to entry that allow fledgling organizations begin to take shape on the server more easily, especially in preparation for settlement opportunities that will could allow for less DM oversight / overhead. A proposal agreed upon then submitted into the wiki from people who are invested in what that might look like. Multiple of these kinds of organizations forming their own soverignty pseudo alliance, and take over the regions of Delve Stain that're assigned to them.

Ideally guilds need more incentivization to exist than dust collecting adventuring groups that log on for loot runs, development would have to flesh that out.

Yes. Yes. All of this, a thousand times yes.

This proposal on the wiki... is it something that actually exists, or is it still only hypothetical?

[Louvaine]

Apologies, I just meant the advice giving and measuring one another.

[zhazz]

My own experience over the past 10 years of playing on the server (had a 6 year hiatus in the middle) is that Team Evil/Morally Questionable (TEMQ) operate in one part of the server landscape, while everyone else operate in another part.

TEMQ usually has influence and control in areas such Soubar, Darkhold, Corm Orp, and other northernly areas, along with most of the Underdark. Everyone else are typically situated around Baldur's Gate, Winding Waters, Greenest, Gullykin, the FAI (and surrounding forests), and Candlekeep to some lesser extent. With Beregost and anything south of it being a sort of no-man-land's land where neither have influence, nor actively operate.

This creates a pseudo-split of the player-base, where the two rarely overlap, aside from neutral characters who don't care one way or the other who's in charge.
A split formed out of the realization that TEMQ have a hard time making any permanent changes to places outside their typical sphere on influence, due to the push-back they'll receive IC (and OOC). And likewise going in the opposite direction for those favouring the side of good.

Either side making an effort to make a change in an opposing area require heavy DM involvement, which is a strain on resources and scheduling. It therefore presents an issue of establishing a sensible timeline, including reaching an outcome that the majority on both sides can at least accept, even if they're not happy with it.

So both groups tend to stay in the respective areas, and only really overlap when a meta-plot requires cooperation or confrontation between opposing factions.


All that being said, I'd love for TEMQ to have more tools and options available to them to affect change. Player-driven plots are some of the best there are, and if they can be achieved with little-to-no DM involvement, they're more likely to not only be enjoyable, but even more so foster new plots.

[Deathgrowl]

Mag has no such ambitions, and the impression I've gathered from listening to accounts of her interventions is that she wants Soubar to remain an insignificant puddle of filth near Boareskyr.

"Near" is a bit generous (and relative!). We're talking thirty-five miles or thereabouts.

It's not wrong, though. Soubar gaining significant prominence is a real threat to Mag's business. Let's face it, she's for all intents and purposes surrounded by potential enemies: The Lord's Alliance. A place where evil is so rampant and even encouraged as Soubar becoming an increasing threat in such a geographical location - the middle of Lord's Alliance territory - will inevitably make the Lord's Alliance have to act decisively.

Imagine a scenario:
Mag gets convinced of the lawful evil aspirations that have historically been attempted there, or perhaps killed and thus removed. The outlaws who hang out in Soubar ("inhabit" is as AoS eluded to rather rare), largely those who value the freedom and lawlessness that Soubar represent, are likely to avoid the place as the hand of tyranny descend upon Soubar, perhaps many leaving for Roaringshore, or going to other lawless places in the Western Hearthlands, or beyond. Some of the less chaotic transients may decide to stay, build a career with these new orderly leaders. A polity rises - an organised, decidedly evil town with ambitions to grow. They start looking very much like the Zhentarim, once again pushing into the Western Hearthlands and towards the Sword Coast. The Zhentarim can deny their association with this lawful evil town and prevent another war from starting, but the Lord's Alliance aren't stupid. Even if it's true that the Zhentarim doesn't have a hand in it, they are an obvious opportunity for the Zhentarim to spread influence once again. And as this town grows, its martial potency strengthens, and its potential to influence the neighbouring cities of the Lord's Alliance rises.

How long will the Lord's Alliance allow this town to grow like this? Lawful entities are better at growing than chaotic entities. Soon enough, someone will come knocking. And depending on what they find, they may very well knock the door down and the house with it. Soubar, given its geographical position, may well be doomed to fail any significant lawful establishment. Build up, only to be utterly trampled by the armies of Waterdeep, Elturel and Baldur's Gate. Unless the Zhentarim does decide to associate, and a larger war will once again begin.

To be honest, it sounds like something that could be fun to see happen over time! But I understand most players don't enjoy such odds.

Similar things can of course be said for any orcish expansions. I have no illusions about this as the player of Obahzk. I fully expect, as is appropriate, any significant orcish expansion to face destruction. Orcs are pests for the civilised people of Faerûn. Uruk Lurra hangs by a thread that is Grimnail. If he is killed (by any other than an orc), the many groups within Uruk Lurra may well turn on each other, fighting for leadership, weakening their cohesion in the stupidity that is orcish culture (praise Bahgtru!). And if Grimnail lives and takes his ambitions further, there are many enemies of orcs about that will not stand for a significant orcish realm. They will be purged.

I, for one, would enjoy that as a player of an orc. I'm personally not interested in empire building. Rather, I am interested in character development. Stories about people and monsters. I'm happy to play the monster, whose character develops too, and can grow to become something to fear or end up defeated and cowering in shame. Unlikely, the latter, for an orc. Most of them will fight to the death.

Besides that I can just agree with AoS' previous remark about "team evil's" historical propensity for self-sabotage. I also will always consider "team evil" to be a terrible misnomer and I wish it was discarded as a term.

[DaloLorn]

Mag has no such ambitions, and the impression I've gathered from listening to accounts of her interventions is that she wants Soubar to remain an insignificant puddle of filth near Boareskyr.

"Near" is a bit generous (and relative!). We're talking thirty-five miles or thereabouts.

Since when have people cared?

I'm personally not interested in empire building. Rather, I am interested in character development. Stories about people and monsters.

I don't see that one must necessarily exclude the other. Although a time may come when Lin's presence in the world becomes more akin to that of an NPC than an active PC, a background force rather than a direct participant in the events of the server, her journey to that point has been (and will be) full of growth and interesting stories. A slum rat, a mere pit fighter, ascending to become the de-facto ruler of an entire settlement? That's a story about a person all right. And I'll be sorry to see its inevitable end, whatever it may be.

[Louvaine]

What I hear you say, Deathgrowl, is that an attempt to organise Soubar is a lost cause and while the journey to ruin can be enjoyable experience (if you can have fun losing), ultimately the vision of Soubar being not an overlooked village not worth anyone's trouble, but a true hub for evil characters of surface is not one that can be achieved in current setting. The only possibilities are to live under the heel of goodly factions, to be defeated or to bail out to other location. Is my understanding correct?

[Valleriani]

Thinking about it like this... I feel like establishing a foothold in Corm Orp or Winding Water, working with the orcs to expand Fort Prominence, or reclaiming the ruined village northwest of Boareskyr, might be a better use of the Crimson Watch's time. It's a shame they've already invested so much effort into Soubar, and that nobody on my roster (active or otherwise) would be both qualified and willing to translate this analysis into IC recommendations...

Unless something changed most of our interactions happen in Soubar for RP purposes and most of it is player to player. I feel like our time could be wasted if we went to Corm Orp or Winding Water because that somewhat requires an active resources from the team to even do such a thing. Not many go there and I'm terrified of starting something there because if we don't get support it will probably spoil it for people. At least in Soubar I know we can enjoy the interactions there as it is. (I also enjoyed Soulcatchers whole ideas on Soubar too.). I'm perfectly fine working with the Orcs, but Fort Prom is 'their' territory.

Regardless, I'm not looking to make Soubar a giant city like BG either, that's not the purpose. I 'did' envision Soubar as the 'underground trade hub' for all illicit goods and the like, though I know this is always somewhat of a case with what Mag does. The real purpose of CW is more like how Mag operates, like a criminal empire rather then how previous factions did it, which was more 'making Soubar bigger/great'. With a happy front façade of fixing Soubars problems.

Honestly, it's not exactly obvious to people who do know it's been done before, either.

To be blunt I have no clue what we can or can't do bar some general things. This is the first time someone has somewhat stated that our efforts are wasted in Soubar too as it was never exactly the case. But then again, I'm not looking to build an outer empire to fight BG, only to help control what we have in the shadows, and possibly make things work smoother. Maybe things weren't clear there

How long will the Lord's Alliance allow this town to grow like this? Lawful entities are better at growing than chaotic entities. Soon enough, someone will come knocking. And depending on what they find, they may very well knock the door down and the house with it. Soubar, given its geographical position, may well be doomed to fail any significant lawful establishment. Build up, only to be utterly trampled by the armies of Waterdeep, Elturel and Baldur's Gate. Unless the Zhentarim does decide to associate, and a larger war will once again begin.

Mag wouldn't allow it. Though From what has been said she herself isn't immune to getting a dagger in her back. Though it would require something of a Noble level death to even attempt it, probably years of planning, and you'd probably die trying. As for getting bigger, if it was 'done', then you can expect eventual retaliation from groups, not that it's a bad thing, I personally think it would be fun too if that's a direction even possible.

Soubar is advantaged primarily by the curious transient, not the inhabitant; endeavoring to develop Soubar raises the stakes of things going wrong due to the meddling hubris evidenced by BGTSCC's history. Mag has been consistent about this.

She has, at least to CW shes been pretty upfront about not wanting to grow in some cases. Obviously it brings unwanted attention the biggest you get, specially as a monster town.


Soubar doesn't need to grow into a giant place, but it can still evolve in some cases. If that is not the case at all, then I'm not sure what people have been trying to do these last years to it and it would all seem moot and pointless. The thing is, Soubar is a hub -- because that's the way it's been really designed on the server. It's the only hub for 'evil' characters that really 'works' for all. Roaringshore can work too, but it's really a pirate city and it has a theme, but I personally enjoy the differences that Soubar gives over it. Both hubs are good though overall. Soubar is easy to get too from all locations from the north, it's almost in the middle really of all the good spots. Winding Water is completely out of the way, Corm Op is somewhat out of the way too.

I think overall a lot of folk in Soubar have done a decent job getting the area to be more alive. I really don't think of any of it being wasted, but I don't see any alternatives to Soubar right now that would work without people getting bored or leaving due to lack of player interaction. I'm perfectly fine with what we're doing. Nor do I feel like it's a waste.

[Saharez]

I'll point out that as an evil character if you are up to anything that resembles evil, victimless or otherwise, if you do not have an empire backing you, odds are that team good will shut your efforts down real fast.

In the current environment as an evil character, it's very difficult to actually get the space and security to develop an evil character without having the backing of an empire.

Perhaps that's why most of the players playing evil characters are into empire building.

Perhaps it should be encouraged for players of evil characters to develop the infrastructure they need to be a tangible threat to team good, resolving in interactions between the good aligned factions and the evil aligned factions that equalizes the level of risk on both sides.

Currently the evil characters carry most of the risk in player conflicts on the surface.

[DaloLorn]

What I hear you say, Deathgrowl, is that an attempt to organise Soubar is a lost cause and while the journey to ruin can be enjoyable experience (if you can have fun losing), ultimately the vision of Soubar being not an overlooked village not worth anyone's trouble, but a true hub for evil characters of surface is not one that can be achieved in current setting. The only possibilities are to live under the heel of goodly factions, to be defeated or to bail out to other location. Is my understanding correct?

Weeeell... he didn't say who would win the war, if the Zhents got involved. But the precariousness of Soubar's position is not a new thing, IMO, any more than Mag's unwillingness to let Soubar grow.

Honestly, it's not exactly obvious to people who do know it's been done before, either.

Thing is Triel exists, Darkhold exists for lore purposes. They have cities (or soon to be?), but it all exists. Something completely of our own that is bigger then just a guild hall? I'm not so sure that is possible

It's been done before. Doron Amar and En Dharasha Everae aren't lore settlements, and to my knowledge they were created by player initiative. The tricky question is, can that still happen? I don't think the DMs can answer that except in the broadest of senses, since it does require a pretty hefty player initiative...

[Valleriani]

It's been done before. Doron Amar and En Dharasha Everae aren't lore settlements, and to my knowledge they were created by player initiative. The tricky question is, can that still happen? I don't think the DMs can answer that except in the broadest of senses, since it does require a pretty hefty player initiative...

Thing is I'm not too concerned about what we're doing in Soubar(I edited my post recently, apologies). CW was always different from the others after we talked to Mag. As in a criminal empire rather than a actual empire 'MAKE SOUBAR GREAT AGAIN' -- With a front face façade of putting a smile on our faces (though I'm sure time to time we can get people to shut up by giving them a 'little' of what they wanted.)

Simply put, similar to how Mag operates and different then how the old factions tried to do things, I would assume. Building an underground syndicate, rather then building Soubar to be grand.